Internationally Acclaimed Author Lydia Davis Discussing The RPG Community Specifically

Lydia Davis may be a name unfamiliar to gamers but she is no slouch. She got a MacArthur Foundation fellowship, won an American Academy of Arts and Letters Award of Merit medal and a Booker Prize.

Here is the story, in its entirety:

Fear

Nearly every morning, a certain woman in our community comes running out of her house with her face white and her overcoat flapping wildly. She cries out, “Emergency, emergency,” and one of us runs to her and holds her until her fears are calmed. We know she is making it up; nothing has really happened to her. But we understand, because there is hardly one of us who has not been moved at some time to do just what she has done, and every time, it has taken all our strength, and even the strength of our friends and families too, to quiet us.

Imagine my surprise at finding here, specifically, in short story form, writing about RPGnet, StoryGames.com, the Forge, etc. and the many other hugbox communities that caused trouble online because of their desire to comfort their local lunatic.

I have written these things many times myself, but nobody really took it to heart.

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Smear Math for Morons

 One very weird thing I've noticed when people discuss the smear campaign is people saying these two thing, often in the same breath:

• lol Zak is so cancelled we sure destroyed his life lmao!
• lol Zak is suing people saying he lost millions, what an idiot lmao!

Now, if you're not a moron (and it should go without saying that anyone participating in the smear is a moron) you'll realize these are basically opposite statements.

If you smear someone and so completely destroy anybody's ability to earn a living doing their job as long as there's an internet, you've likely cost them over a million dollars. That's not about me specifically, that's anyone.

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The math:

Let's say you, like me, live in California.

Minimum wage is 16$ per hour.

That's 128$ per day.

That's 3,840$ per month.

That's 46,080$ per year.

Assuming the person lives a minimum of 30 more years and (like most artists) never retires, that's 1,382,400$.

That's assuming no inflation and just using minimum wage--and I did make more than minimum wage.

(Just for the development of I Am The Weapon alone, I was making 3000$ per month before the smear. If that less-than-minimum-wage figure seems high remember I'm contracted for all the writing and all the illustration. If you would like the documentation on that--just ask. This is also in every court record. I also had two projects in development with LotFP at the time--Bards and Violence in the Nympharium. Both of those included a cash advance and then I make a percentage after. Or ignore all these numbers and look at how much the artists and writers make on literally any mid-tier indie RPG kickstarter.)

Now, I am publishing again and so that income's not all lost, but that's only after having successfully sued three people who smeared me.

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And here's probably the main thing seem to forget or not realize:

RPGs isn't my main job, I've never claimed it was. I am a painter. I paint paintings for a living that people are supposed to buy. That is my job and was long before any game stuff I did ever existed.

Just because the people who smeared me were themselves in RPGs doesn't mean that I only lost RPG work. You'd have to have brain damage to think that only people in games noticed your smear campaign. All that work disappeared as well.

This is all in the article Dr Weisman wrote (missing audio here).

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And, of course, on top of that, destroying someone's reputation doesn't just destroy their income, it destroys their entire life.

And the non-monetary damage to their life is undeniably worse than the loss of income.

Since death is preferable to my current situation, if you're me, basically this cost me however much my entire life is worth. That's a price higher than any dollar amount. The only reason I am sticking around is the very slim hope it gets undone.

Again: this isn't special. I assume you think your life is worth a lot to you, too. If someone offered you a million dollars to die, you probably wouldn't take that deal.

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There are a lot of things that are really obvious about the situation the hatemob created that seem to be lost on everyone talking about it online, this about money is just one of them. But it fits in a blog entry so there you go.

If you lie about someone being a felon and put it all over the internet and that person's entire life is working in public, you did way more than a million dollars worth of damage.

It's not about me being special, that's just life.

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How To Fix Everything

This is a really interesting article about how some people managed to talk like adults about a piece of art they didn't like. Whether or not you like their solution: it appears they came to a solution that made a variety of people who disagreed but who all cared happy.

Basically, they solved this thorny public art problem by not allowing drive-by comments.

Without fail, people arrived at these events primed to make public comments, only to be surprised when they could not find a formal body to make a speech to, as there were only small-group conversations to join. They didn’t want to spend their time having to speak and listen at human scale. Indeed, listening, in small groups or one-on-one, over long periods, tried the patience of some participants. But it also bled out the cursed public discourse that had surrounded the issue for so long—exhausting those who had just one point to make and no interest in connecting or communicating, only in winning.

They point out that the usual process--people lining up to give a speech to an assembly of other people (most of whom were also there to give speeches) was tried and, as usual, didn't work. 

It's worthwhile thinking about how many online platforms are basically that: someone who will monologue but is not expected to engage getting access to a big audience of people who all want to engage or, themselves, monologue. Forums are like that, Twitter is like that. (People who write blogs but don't answer the comments are like that.)

And it's worth thinking about which kinds of people thrive in specifically those environments--people who have a deep belief in one-way communication and not being fact-checked. People who are twitter-famous or familiar forum-faces but not well-known as creators tend to be, basically, righteous trash.

So that's that.

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Anybody curious about court news with Gencon--it's on appeal to the higher court now. If you didn't see that coming you haven't been paying attention.

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Good Deed Goes Punished

 The Demon City galley--proofs are sitting on my table:

The real books should be actually printed soon...

The section on political campaigns was written by Linda Tirado, the journalist who wrote the section on political campaigns and whose been a stalwart ally on the project since day one:

She is now not expected to live very long due to complications from the police shooting her in the eye while she was covering the Black Lives Matter protests. (There is a link there for anyone who would like to donate to palliative hospice care or to her kids and family). This section of Demon City may, weirdly, be the last thing she wrote that sees print.

Linda interviewing a source for a
story at my place

I've known Linda for about a decade. She knew me, she knew my ex, she'd been to my house, she played games with us, she gave me 10,000$ to help with my court cases (it was 10k she couldn't afford: within the year she was asking if I could spare anything.) Although she didn't get to LA nearly enough, she tried hard to help whenever she could.

I am now going to tell my favorite Linda story:

So as you may know, losing one eye is *not* just like it looks when you cover one eye or see a pirate movie. It really messes with your depth perception in ways a person used to two eyes can't simulate. Linda had real trouble getting around alone even just in my apartment or, more to the point, in her own house

So they live down south, from the point of view of the kids (elementary school at this time): perfectly operational mommy goes away to Minneapolis, comes back stomping on toys, using a walker, losing short-term memory, etc

Her daughter (8-ish) goes to school one day. The school is having one of those fire drills or active shooter lectures or anti-graffiti assemblies or whatever and so there's a Tennessee state trooper or sheriff or something in the hall waiting to tell these children whats what.

Linda's daughter walks up to this man and says "Fuck the cops!" then heads down the hall to third grade

The Tirado household gets a phone call from the principal's office. They would like to have a parent-teacher conference.

So in comes Linda.  Down the hall with her walker clank clank and comes in and sits down and meets the principal in the office. And they say:

 "Your daughter said 'fuck the cops' to a sworn officer in the hallway last week".

So Linda fixes them with her eye, lights a cigarette (would you stop her?) and says "I don't see the problem here".

The principal was like "Ah, I think I understand". And that was that.

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Also: Linda has known she was dying for several months. She was one of the few people I could talk frankly about my possible impending death with and vice versa. She understood about court cases (there were no criminal charges against the cop who shot her so, like me, she had to sue), she understood the idea of getting your affairs in order for the sake of what happens after, and that most people do not know how to talk about that and freak out and freeze up and are the opposite of helpful. This put her in a very rare class of people for me.

And she was really funny. "Tell everyone when I die: Sunscreen". For that reason and many others, I recommend her books.

I will miss her very much. 

The Zak Conspiracy Theorists Admitted They Lied

If you read his blog, this is the most important thing that's ever been on it:

I started this blog in 2009 to document my mostly-porn-stars' game group's D&D game and my game ideas.

A little while later, I started getting asked to make my own game stuff, and I did.

As is typical for someone a little internet-famous, lots of conspiracy theories about me started spreading.

Most of these didn't affect much until 2019, when basically they destroyed my life

An Oxford-educated psychotherapist and researcher wrote a story about all this, documenting the conspiracy theorists harassing me, doing extensive interviews with the harassers where they openly admit they know they weren't telling the truth:

http://archive.is/0Nv3c

The researcher got harassed as soon as she published and got scared and took it down. However the audio clips of the folks admitting they lied are here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GJAJNbF2Tg

Interviewees confirmed they talked to her here:

and here:

https://x.com/pjamesstuart/status/1751884833867890952

https://x.com/machineiv/status/1752010444712128749

Goatmansgoblet/Brian Yaksha/Brian Richmond deleted his twitter after he was exposed.

Others apologized spontaneously:

...others had to be sued before they apologized:

Because Mike Mearls (formerly of offical WOTC D&D and someone else targeted by the conspiracy theory described in the article) was recently hired by Chaosium, the conspiracy theorists are having a field day again, lying all over again, and being believed all over again.  

I've successfully sued three times over this. The research is done, it's public. People involved directly admitted into an audio recorder that they lied, didn't check sources, spread things they didn't confirm.

This should matter. This should end. 

Claims like this are basically attempted murder--and they will succeed unless the people who don't want me dead take this as seriously as the people who do.

I am at the limit of my ability to communicate the seriousness of the situation. I don't know what to do.

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Collectivity, Cooperation and Challenge

Failures of Collective Spirit

Everyone on the internet, and many people who aren't, have had an experience like this:

-"Hey guys don't we all love this boat we're on!"

-"Yes we do! Or, at least--it is better than having no boat!" all agree

-"Ok, do whatever, have fun doing your thing just please nobody press the red button or the boat will explode!"

-Someone--just for funsies, or for clown clout--presses the red button.

-Boat explodes. Everyone regrets this.

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This is a failure of collectivity.

That is: a set of behaviors that everyone involved acknowledges benefits everyone, including themselves, and someone just cannot stop themself from putting some other short-term personal goal first.

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In a role-playing game one of the fun parts is having your PC do weird or funny stuff, things you wouldn't do in a more practical world--the fun of being someone else.

In a role-playing game with a heavy challenge element (one where there's a real threat that you will lose a character and therefore no longer be able to play the game in the specific way you were having fun playing it and have to start over and do it a different way) the usual best strategy to succeed in the challenge is to engage in collective thinking.

This can involve explicit planning--"We all benefit if we kill the monster and get the treasure, so let's pay attention to who we each are as a group and figure out how to use those aptitudes to best do that", but it can also involve just, as a player, being aware of who the other peoples' characters are and what they can do.

Many people experience a mild conflict here in the moment:

• They want to succeed!
• They also wanna do what they wanna do because its playtime, dammit!
• (Also sometimes failing because one PC cannot help but be the squeaky wheel they are is fun, too.)

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Outside a role-playing game online there are other obvious examples of this in forums online:

For example, there's no piece information that can be passed on via namecalling on a forum that can't be passed on in some other way, but someone will, eventually, always do it even when there's an explicit rule against it. Somebody gets bounced and nobody is hurt but them.

Every time somebody does one of these things they're failing to act in a way that's best for everyone--including them--and they know it, but they just can't stop themself.

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D&D and Cooperation

D&D is very much a game about cooperation.

It is much more so than most triple-A video games or nearly any other popular entertainment you'll be involved with outside of actual sports.

This is an oddly-smothered point.

The Lord of the Rings is a trilogy about cooperation, as is Star Wars. The ideal that people with diverse skillsets and attitudes need to work together to achieve laudable long-term goals is deep deep in the DNA of the media that inspired most RPGs.

The current post-5e, post-Critical Role, post-D&D The Movie temperature of conversation about D&D broadly online emphasizes many things including:

-Character-creation options (related to conversations about peoples' interest in video game character gen options) and the ability to use them to express yourself

and

-Progressive social principles.

Considering this, its very odd that one of D&D's radiant innate progressive virtues--the emphasis on working together--isn't placed front and center all the time.

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Here's Why

Despite any open claims of holding to progressive principles, the people most responsible for the current conversation in RPGs absolutely suck at collective thinking. So many pay more attention to what happens to an imaginary orc than to a real human player at the table with them.

I know. I've seen them play games. I was often in games with them.

Right now the conversation is defined by:

-the post-Storygame narrativist scene which largely grew out of people being unable to communicate with their fellow D&D or Vampire or RIFTS groups, especially in challenge-oriented play and so invented games full of rules to police interhuman communication or simply gatekeep any player out unless that player wanted to play the exact narrowly-defined microsubgenre of game they themselves wanted to play instead of just agreeing they all wanted the fucking ring to go in that fucking volcano

and

-2010s OSR veterans who, when given a choice between politely asking one sacred crackpot friend to stop lying on the internet or letting the entire ship sink, absolutely chose letting the ship sink

I reiterate-I have seen these people play games. 

They are absolutely blown away by 101-level collective-success tactics. See you're outnumbered? Back up, close the door, pour flaming oil on the floor, drop marbles in the oil, have a resilient PC hold a torch over the oil (remember which PCs are resilient!), ready to drop it, protect the wizards. Works all the time.

They are filled with shock and awe by even just the most basic gestures in this direction, they will make you leader immediately.

Patrick Stuart once killed one of Zach Marx Weber's PC because he thought throwing green slime on him would help.

If the current version of progressivism in the RPG scene seems oddly fascist, I'd posit this is why--these are the people who have absolutely zero practice self-governing, who made their clout by talking about how they were proudly unable to play with anyone else and needed very new very specific new gates built to keep people out rather than just learning how to throw a party.

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Idiots With Benefits

Before I go into real news, legal update/rumor control: In 2021 a judge tried to dismiss my defamation case against Gen Con—this was much celebrated by right wing douchenozzles on twitter. I appealed to a higher court, won, & the case was back on. Oddly, the douchenozzles didn’t spread the word about that. Well the same judge just tried it again. The right wing douchenozzles are celebrating again, like they forgot this already happened. Obviously I’ll just appeal again to the same higher court.

So, anyway something else that happened last week was interesting.

• A couple of Gen Con's fellow right-wing hatemob members named (on Twitter anyway) panny_lines and aledlawlor have a little company called Leyline Press.
• They hired someone to edit one of their RPGs.
• They then fired them when they found out that they'd once worked for Lamentations of the Flame Princess, the company that published most of my game stuff. They also erased his name from the credits.
• They then made a very vague announcement about their very vague right-wing problems they had with LotFP. They made the word "problematic" do a lot of work.
• Now here's the strange thing, something that hasn't happened during the last 4 years of hatemobbing: people noticed--and did something about it.
• Lamentations then announced a big sale.
• Lamentations then sold a phenomenal amount of product:

And keeps selling a phenomenal amount:

Now this was just a pdf sale, that ends tomorrow.

A sale on printed stuff starts today.

Action is good.

Fix things.

Ask Them Why.

I sued again. It worked. Again.

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In 2019, by taking advantage of my estranged and mentally-ill ex, basically the entire tabletop RPG industry decided to start harassing me.

It worked. They destroyed my entire life. I had a career inside RPGs, I had a (much larger) career outside RPGs selling paintings. I had a social life. All that was annihilated.

This is my eviction notice--because I couldn't pay the rent because of this:

This is my food stamp card--because I can't afford food because of this::

This is where my 5 missing teeth used to be--because I couldn't afford to get them fixed because of this:

This is what happened when I sued Ettin / Paul Matijevic, a Something Awful troll and RPGnet moderator in Australia, where he lives, for claiming I abused and harassed people:

This is what happened when I sued the game streamer Vivka Grey, in Los Angeles, where she lives, for claiming I abused and harassed people:

This is what happened when Vivka Grey sued me back, claiming I was lying when I defended myself:

And, now, if you were on the internet yesterday, you might've seen this:

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I haven't lost a case yet.

For years everyone has been telling me how hard it is to win a defamation case in the US.

Fewer than 5% of civil cases go to trial.

Viv, for one, admits to having spent over half a million dollars on her cases, yet I won while evicted, on food stamps, and missing five teeth.

You may have heard about my case against GenCon being dismissed. It was. Then I appealed. Only about 20% of appeals are successful. I appealed, it worked.

And then everybody was telling me how hard it was to sue overseas--how would you collect? You collect the same way people overseas pay for anything else, with the internet. It's 2023.

Everyone who was screaming at you about me was wrong. Again.

How long can hundreds of nerds be wrong before just admitting it?

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Both in court and on the internet, when anyone anywhere is asked to produce any proof I did anything bad they come up empty. 

This is especially significant considering how many people are claiming I did bad online things--things that should be able to be proved with a fucking screenshot. Nobody has been able to come up with thing one.

Basically, every single thing a person could possibly do to prove they're innocent, I did. In person, on video, via tweet, in court, out of court, you name it--I have been subjected to every kind of scrutiny from every direction for longer than it'd take to earn a Bachelor's.

If you still think I did something wrong, I'm not asking "provide proof" (there isn't any), I'm just asking, for the millionth time: Why? What makes you personally believe any of this shit? 

-When at least a dozen of the people who spread this bullshit have been, themselves, cancelled?

-When the original beef that all the Something Awful goons (like Ettin) had was fake allegations of transphobia against someone whose main online defenders are trans, who repeatedly got trans people hired, and gave up a 5-figure contract to protest transphobia?

-When the original beef that all the story game designers had was a bunch of shit nobody now believes about the supposed objective inferiority of Old School games or people who played them?

-When there's video evidence that the people who started this particular round of harassment turned out to be lying out their asses?

-When the excuse that I have a trust fund turns out to be bullshit because I don't?

-When the excuse that "well the laws are different there" turns out to be bullshit because I won in the US, too?

-When the excuse that I was "obnoxious" has to be put side by side with but you lied about rape?

What the fuck reason do they have left?

Ask them. Ask for the receipts that justify their hate.

Ask WOTC and Hasbro what's left of their reasons for doing this..

Ask GenCon what's left.

Ask Matt Mercer what's left.

Ask the folks at Green Ronin Games what's left.

Ask the guys at Mothership what's left.

Ask Patrick Stuart and Gus L and Arnold K and Noisms over at Monsters and Manuals and all the other OSR people what's left.

Ask Chris McDowall and the OSR discord what's left.

Ask Sandy Pug Games and Tin Star Games what's left.

Ask the Troika folks what's left.

Ask all the sacred crackpots what's left.

Ask Ramanan and Grey Wizard working on BREAK! what's left.

Ask Crystal Frasier and Jessica Price --formerly of Paizo--what's left.

Ask Andy Kitkowski--the founder of Story-Games.com--and Ron Edwards--leading light of the Forge--what's left.

Ask RPGnet and reddit/RPG and reddit/OSR what's left.

Ask OneBookShelf what's left.

When every single reason for hurting someone has been proven by time and by inquiry and by the law to be bullshit, what claim are they hanging on to?

Ask for the receipts. Ask why they ever believed any of it. Ask if they think their reasons were good. Ask if they're even capable of changing their minds.

Please ask them for me.

Ask because I can't do it because I'm busy moving because I can't live in my apartment any more, and my friends here can't because they're busy helping me. 

And when you ask these people, remind them: I will never give up. So if they've got reasons, they'd better be real sure what they are.

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A Gift To Jojiro

So, since I won, more apologies are trickling in. Which is good: every public apology is one less person I might have to sue.

But a lot of people are doing weird in-between things, here's a telling example:

Once upon a time there was someone screen-named Jojiro or Ant Wu.

In the beforetimes, they liked my game stuff and started social media-ing me.

Then they were casually in a conversation and started namecalling at someone. I was like "Hey, this is a place for grown-ups, we don't do that, you're banned" and Jojiro was like "Wait, wait! I want to talk".

So, I set up a Zoom call. On this Zoom call I patiently explained to what appeared to be an actual human adult that it is not good to announce your issues with a fellow human adult you share space with in the form of namecalling.

Just like every other time I did this, it worked.  Because there is no sane argument a person can make in real time against "If you have an issue with someone tell them like a grown up".

This seemed to have an oddly profound effect on Jojiro. For a long time Jojiro started talking to lots of people in their life like fucking adults instead of 4chan trash. Jojiro's life improved. Jojiro made this claim frequently.

But also, just like every other time a gamer troll got confronted, they eventually backslid. They joined the hatemob and were extremely active in hatemob spaces in the early days, pushing for my life to be destroyed. 

But they would post conflicted things like this (from the OSR Discord)...

...where they are still very active.

After I announced won, they sent me this:

I'll open with the most relevant thing. I'm sorry. I fucked up.

This is Anthony Wu/Jojiro.

In 2019 I said I had a hard time believing your story regarding Mandy and co.

In the intervening years I maintained this position in more conversations than I can count. With the passing of time, I now believe that I was wrong. The process by which I've come to that belief is independent of evidence or the court case. It was a BPD friend of mine from childhood flipping out on me about totally false premises that convinced me - nothing like your situation, but she painted me as an abusive friend, citing events that didn't ever exist in reality. This is not ideal, I think, by your values as I understand them - ideally it would be fact-checking, and not personal hurt, that would inspire my apology to you. I've wondered if there's any point in apologizing, when my apology is so far from what you actually want people to do.

Oh well. You've said that apologies matter to you - not in a personal sense, but in the sense that you thought humanity was more normal, sane, and good when people apologized for being wrong. In lieu of that - I'm sorry. I was wrong.

You've also said that when people make public attacks, they should make public apologies.

I've not the moral fortitude for that - I've no plan to go and rescind every single wrong thing I've said about you. I've stopped, certainly, but I've done damage to you, and this is me admitting that I've no plan to go and undo the damage.

If that admission positions this email as a pointless apology - fair enough.

Still felt that I should send it.

Congratulations on your legal victory against Vivka.

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Proof below:

So Jojiro, I will be patient and generous with you again, accept this gift.

While you not have the "moral fortitude" to go public and apologize and help fix the problem you created, I did it for you.

Gygax vobiscum.

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What, if anything, was your understanding of the phrase "Group titfuck bonanza"?

From Viv's "Dread" Character Sheet

Previously on D&D With Pornstars: We had a trial. I won. Details.

Today on D&D With Pornstars: A trial excerpt. Because trials are funny.

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[Context: Viv had claimed that I talked with a level of sexual frankness she wasn’t comfortable with etc. ]

(lawyer) MR SELF: Can you please help us understand what you understand to be written in the top of page 2-18?

MR SMITH: Okay. so this is -- you want me to read the whole thing from my pov?

MR SELF: Yes, please.

JUDGE: And what page are you on, two?

MR SMITH: 2-18.

MR. SELF: 2-18, top of the page.

MR SMITH: So, "re, a much more civilized means of communication." V stands for Vivid. That's Vivid's -- Viv's e-mail address. There's a date in January which I actually have a hard time reading. And it says wednesday. “Oh, fine, leave me to wallow in pain and braces and give myself post surgery boob rubdowns." She's referring to her plan to get breast implants.

(lawyer) MS. KRIEGER: I'm sorry, object to his characterization of what she was intending. Calls for speculation.

MR SMITH: Okay.

JUDGE: Overruled. Go ahead.

MR SMITH: Mandy -- then there's —I think like she's sticking out her tongue that -- I think that's what that is. "Mandy is going to school ... you guys get back, and bam, group tit fuck bonanza. Then you will be a lucky guy." Then is in all caps.

And that -- I don't know what that -- [reading viv's email] "Wow, better not have been sarcastic. threatens with thumb of fury. hearts, pretty hearts, xo xo."

Q BY MR. SELF: Mr. Smith, do you here today in 2021 recall seeing the statement you just read to us at the time that it was published?

MR SMITH: Did I read it in 2010 when I got it as an e-mail, yeah. Yes.

MR SELF: Do you remember reading it?

MR SMITH: Yeah. I remember -- I remember -- yeah. Yes.

[You’re not supposed to say “yeah” or “uh huh” at trials, because its hard on the stenographer, but I keep forgetting.)

MR SELF: What do you remember, if at all, was your understanding of that phrase "group tit fuck bonanza"?

MR SMITH: That we were like -- Viv was going to get breast implants and we are all having sex. And that was -- having sex and specifically —I don't know if there's any other way to say “tit fucking” except for “tit fucking”. I apologize to the court, but yeah.

[I looked it up: “mammary intercourse”]

MR SELF: Based on your experience with the defendant, did Ms. Grey seem easily embarrassed or humiliated about things of a sexual nature?

MR SMITH: Not at all. in fact it was one of the things that we liked about her. She's very kind of crude and frank and --

MR SELF: Pronouns. When you say we?

MR SMITH: Amanda Nagy. Ms Nagy and I liked about that she was very frank, open, honest about everything sexual, you know.

MR SELF: Based on your experience as Ms. Nagy's husband, would you characterize Ms Nagy as having been open and frank about sexuality in matters of a sexual nature at that time as well?

MR SMITH: Almost more than any living human, yes.

MR SELF: What about you, Mr. Smith? How open, if at all, were you regarding matters of a sexual nature in and around 2011?

MR SMITH: Very open. I had just published a book called “We Did Porn," which was a memoir about working in the sex industry. So yeah.

MR SELF: Real briefly, what -- tell us -- give us a summary, synopsis of that memoir.

MR SMITH: It talks about how i got into the business out of -- I was a working artist before, and still was, and then working on movies and meeting Mandy and -- Amanda Nagy, Ms. Nagy, and other people we knew in the industry by the time I had written the book. So covered a few years of the beginning at that. It also had art in it, drawings.

Mr Self: Do you remember a song by a Detroit artist named DJ assault?

MR SMITH: Yeah.

MR SELF: That was --

MR SMITH: “Ass and Titties." Viv introduced it to us. We were trying to play a game [Dread], and it was a game where people can be eliminated. And Viv got eliminated first, and so she started playing this song "Ass and Titties." And the lyrics are just "Ass, titties, ass, ass, ass, ass, ass, ass, ass, titties, titties, titties." And she was -- you know, that was Viv.

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