Monday, August 1, 2016

The (Incredibly Weak) Case Against James Raggi

As will surprise nobody, Mark Diaz Truman continues to receive abuse for calling out some broken stairs and harassment in the Indie game community. The project of pressuring Mark to abandon his principles is aided and abetted by the fact that for some reason nobody in that community ever asks for evidence to back up accusations.

Lots of folks are whaling on me--of course--but I saw some collateral damage in one public thread and if we don't provide facts we're no better than they are.

So: you can see some pretty harrowing accusations here against James Raggi, publisher of Lamentations of the Flame Princess.

So, the evidence: The threads the accuser is referring to are here (you gotta be in James' circles to read it) and here. You can judge for yourself.

If you want to support James during these trying times, you can get something cool at the LotFP store.

Edit Aug 2, 6:03 pm Pacific Time:

I got 2 reports in the last hour about the person who harassed James quitting G+. The second one suggested James' harasser had received some kind of threat from some other harasser.

Obviously: do not do that, don't send threats of any kind to people. Do this instead.
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26 comments:

  1. I don't have the time or the energy to delve through all these online debates in detail; but if the accusations about what Raggi's said are as ill-founded as the ones about what he's published, I have no difficulty in believing them to be baseless. Though the highly exaggerated claims about how horrific and offensive and controversial LotFP is probably at least provide useful publicity.

    The bundle really is very good.

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  2. I think I can see where Taylor is coming from, and why it was felt that James was rude, as I think I see how he misunderstood the context for Taylor's statement.

    Always giving the source and facts are good practices, indeed.

    Just another example of why text only internet conversations seems ripe for misunderstandings. Way too much of what's going on now is the Eternal September.

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    1. If you walked away from that seeing where Taylor was coming from, you were not reading very carefully.

      Taylor obviously wasn't reading very carefully either though Taylor presumably (one hopes) has extenuating reasons not to read carefully.

      Do you?

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    2. And, moreover, you aren't allowed to just assume and then spread that assumption all over the internet like Taylor did _without checking with your victim to make sure you got it right_ .

      Anybody can misunderstand--the responsible person checks

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    3. Yes, I think you are correct that Taylor did not read as carefully as you say. I think he was hurting a lot and taking everything around him in the worst possible way, and that James in that way he phrased things made it possible for Taylor to interpret James' statement as an attack. I do not for a second think it was intended as it was received.

      But, like I said. I think this medium seems to breed misunderstandings. Hell, like you say I misreads things and take it the wrong way to online myself as well.

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    4. Sorry.

      "Hell, like you say I misreads things online and take it the wrong way myself as well."

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    5. I actually just now tried to have a conversation with Taylor, and he do seems to be a very hurt individual that probably does not read carefully and weights the intention of what is written.

      Sadly I might just have unintentionally piled more pain on his back.

      Delete
    6. And that is the entire Zak vs Drama Club dynamic in a nutshell.

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    7. Well. You are one of the most literal minded people I've talked to online, and Taylor seems to be in a world of hurt in general, so if that combo happens often I can see how sparks will fly...

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    8. It's not that I'm literal-minded, it's that I am aware of the legal and moral status of written, recorded,public communication as being different than the status of casual speech.

      If you don't want what you say taken literally, don't be typing it in a serious conversation visible to all strangers with access to Google forever. They don't have the context stupid people assume everyone does, because they just googled that conversation.

      Seriously saying things you literally can't back up in public forever is just irresponsible in that context and can do a lot of harm.

      Delete
    9. I don't disagree in spirit, but trust me, I've seen few who are so consistent about it as you. :)

      Delete
  3. I am very much hoping to give Mr. Raggi some money at Gencon in a couple of days.

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  4. I don't know where you get the patience. Respect.

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  5. Is all the drama really just as simple as this... the drama club hates the fact that 1) Zak and several of his gaming group are associated with/have done porn and 2) professional jealousy that he's not only a consultant for 5E but also very successful professionally with his gaming products?

    Oh, and Zak calls people out when they make claims without facts and data to back them up. Which is totally fair... and if you admit your mistake and recant, that's fine. Be an adult, own it.

    I've noticed the latest tactic of the drama club these days is to claim that Zak "deleted" posts that were proof of their claims. *rolls eyes* How convenient...

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    Replies
    1. I would never assert your first paragraph since I can't prove it.
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      They're saying I deleted posts? Where? What?

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    2. That's true, unless someone flat out says it, we have no proof.

      When I was reading Marks thread and the replies and related material I saw more than one claim to that effect. I am hunting one down now...

      Delete
    3. Excerpy from Mike on Marks two minutes hate post, July 27th at 1:36am: "... Unfortunately, because Zak edited and deleted many posts in that discussion (and later the other discussion between he and Tony), there’s no evidence of it other than the screencap taken of Rob’s post..."

      Delete
    4. They also are acting like _that's the only shit thing Rob's done_ . In reality he has been harassing people for years:

      Here's Robert Bohl basically plussing the idea that you should only assume good faith with your own clique:
      https://plus.google.com/+RowanCota/posts/cNBrvwEUaAv

      Here he is dogpiling harassment and lying:
      https://plus.google.com/+RowanCota/posts/aRLqo3qGbxu

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      Here's Robert Bohl endorsing harassment via false claims:
      https://plus.google.com/u/0/114989648662861338239/posts/Vt5xzC42cpG
      https://plus.google.com/+FredHicks/posts/JcovUxJdRUR
      https://plus.google.com/118259119150230982431/posts/2y5SDwRLC4g
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      Here;s Robert Bohl committing harassment by spreading false claims:
      https://plus.google.com/u/0/+RobertBohl/posts/XJA2G24FjdC
      https://plus.google.com/u/0/117696812743786248325/posts/PjAz621FPMF
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      Robert Bohl dogpiling harassment and admitting openly that he is not rational:
      https://plus.google.com/+RowanCota/posts/MXfepzdZYV5

      Robert BohlSep 3, 2015



      I got it now.

      I'm all for walking out on and trash talking that douchebag, but I am not very rational about him.

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      Robert Bohl attacking folks after starting an anti-OSR pecking party thread
      https://plus.google.com/u/0/+RobertBohl/posts/8RMrE2xqzaE

      Robert Bohl
      Shared publicly - Jan 19, 2016

      Where is the innovation in OSR games?


      Zak SmithYesterday 4:46 AM+2
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      Honestly, when I see some of The Other Indie RPG Movement's new stuff I am wondering, information-design wise, when they're gonna catch up to OSR innovations. Vincent Baker's Seclusium for example could've benefitted a lot from split-column tables or labelled maps.

      Robert BohlYesterday 4:47 AM+1
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      Hey, Zak, fuck off, you worthless piece of shit. I see what you're doing and I will not play.

      Zak SmithYesterday 4:48 AM




      Answer the question you asked in the OP?
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    5. Here is a passel of miscellaneous abuse from Robert Bohl, proving conclusively he is utterly psychotic and possibly dangerous:

      https://plus.google.com/u/0/+DanMaruschak/posts/YKdZBKtcwV6


      Robert Bohl
      +1
      I will die from shock if you tel me that Zak came here and started acting like an incoherent asshole for no reason.

      Robert Bohl
      +Zak Smith - Fuck off. You're not actually interested in a discussion. You're a troll with a following. Don't bother trying to engage me because it won't go well. You're a waste of the universe's limited supply of reversed entropy.

      Jul 9, 2015
      Zak Sabbath's profile photo
      Zak Sabbath
      And, of course, I never have ever said anything incoherent ever in you presence +Robert Bohl and you should apologize if you can't cite a source on that.
      Unless, proving my point yt again you can cite no evidence to back up your lie
      It's fine to get something out of talking online, but then stop starting totally idiotic attack conversations online and then running away from them
      Jul 9, 2015
      Zak Sabbath's profile photo

      Zak Sabbath
      +1
      If you don't want to talk why do you start these conversations?
      If you can't defend yourself why do y'all run around attacking people ?
      Jul 9, 2015

      Robert Bohl's profile photo
      Robert Bohl
      +Zak Smith - I'm not going to apologize. Fuck you. You waste of fucking skin. You're a stupid asshole and a pig. A scumbag. Some of the worst our hobby has to offer. You're a fucking shit golem. Go away forever.
      Jul 9, 2015

      Robert Bohl's profile photo
      Robert Bohl
      PS: I owe you nothing. You're a fucking cancer. I will not pretend and play your bullshit civility games. Your only point in existing is starting arguments.
      Jul 9, 2015
      (continued below)

      Delete

    6. Zak Sabbath's profile photo
      Zak Sabbath
      +Robert Bohl If you think I'm a troll, again: Citation needed . I have never trolled anyone.
      Unless, yet again, you want to pour more fuel on the fire of:
      PostForge people constantly say shit with no evidence and interpret any disagreement as an attack.
      This is why y'all never get anything done and nothing changes-- Vincent Baker doesn't do this insane libel shit Robert just did and, coincidentally, made one of the only decent games to come out of the postForge in recent years.
      Gee I wonder why?

      Jul 9, 2015
      Robert Bohl's profile photo
      Robert Bohl
      +Zak Smith - Fuck you, scumbag. I owe you nothing. You're garbage. You're a shambling abortion given life. You're a rotten cesspool and I'm pretty sure you fuck orangutans.

      You're worthless. There's nothing to you but pomp and bullshit. Your soul is made up of a dried cat turd.

      And you're a fucking bully.

      Jul 9, 2015
      Zak Sabbath's profile photo
      Zak Sabbath
      Serious question: If I "only exist to start arguments" then how come I've made so much more good stuff than you? And why did you add me in the first place?
      "Civility" is not the issue here, usefulness is . I am not asking people to be polite I am asking them to have conversations directed toward people knowing more at the end than at the beginning .
      You are, simply lying at this point in the face of a mountain of evidence.
      Jul 9, 2015
      Zak Sabbath's profile photo

      Zak Sabbath
      Another Citation Needed:
      In order to be a bully I'd need to have some power you don't. Here's my power: to type on the internet. Same as yours, Robert.
      If you can't hang in an intellectual discussion and instead get upset that's on you, not on the good people you victimize when you do that. +Robert Bohl

      Robert Bohl
      +Zak Smith - I have no idea what you make. You don't matter to me. You are an evil little fuckwit. Your sole purpose in life is to make other lives worse. I am tired of pretending like you're a person. You're not. You're garbage. You're filth. You're a cancer. You're a stain.

      Pat yourself on the back for being honest all you want, asshole. I don't care. You words are meaningless. You are meaningless. You are scum.

      The issue here is you're not worth being. There is no point to you. That's the issue.

      Jul 9, 2015
      Robert Bohl's profile photo
      Robert Bohl
      +Zak Smith - You are not a good person. You're an empty husk. You're a living exemplar of all that's wrong with humanity.
      Jul 9, 2015

      Robert Bohl's profile photo
      Robert Bohl
      Also asking for citations is pointless. I won't give them. Feel free to continue asking though, you indescribably stupid asshole.

      Jul 9, 2015
      Dan Maruschak's profile photo
      Dan Maruschak
      +Robert Bohl Please stop interacting with Zak in this thread, unless you're prepared to call what you believe is his bluff of faux-civility by acting civilly yourself.

      +Zak Smith Please stop agitating Rob. Whatever point you think you're making is surely made by now. Not every thread needs to be about the grievances you have, legitimate or otherwise, with the post-Forge community.
      Jul 9, 2015
      Zak Sabbath's profile photo

      Zak Sabbath
      +Robert Bohl I am up for 4 Ennies this year. Now you know.
      You may now apologize for your assumption that "sole purpose in life is to make other lives worse".
      Obvious question: If you're done talking to me then why are you still typing answering me on this shit? You're contradicting even yourself at this point.
      Jul 9, 2015
      Robert Bohl's profile photo


      (continued below)

      Delete

    7. Robert Bohl
      +Dan Maruschak - I refuse to engage in his lies. He's not here to talk. He never is. He just want to start fights. I am laying bare his incredibly simple bullshit.

      +Zak Smith - Fuck you you halfwit asshole. I don't care how many Ennies you're nominated for. By all means though, keep congratulating yourself on awards. That's the height of artistic success. You vapid, empty, worthless shitheel. Your work is valueless and tainted by dint of coming from your fingers. You're a scumbag and everyone knows it. I will not play your stupid game.
      Jul 9, 2015

      Zak Sabbath's profile photo
      Zak Sabbath
      +Dan Maruschak I never asserted that every thread needed to be about anything . If you believe I said that or believe it: Citation needed.
      I do think the present thread has provided an example of the problem I see in spades .

      Jul 9, 2015
      Dan Maruschak's profile photo
      Dan Maruschak
      +1
      +Robert Bohl As a third party, I can tell you that it doesn't look to me like you are laying bare anything. I looks to me like you're hurling insults.
      Jul 9, 2015

      Dan Maruschak's profile photo
      Dan Maruschak
      +Zak Smith Citation needed: where did I say you asserted that? I was just saying a true thing. Do you disagree with the true thing I said?
      Jul 9, 2015

      Robert Bohl's profile photo
      Robert Bohl
      +Dan Maruschak - I'm definitely doing that. That's all he's earned. He's nothing but a troll who pretends to have conversations. He prides himself on causing fights. He's a bad person, and we need to stop acting like that's not true. I don't really care what I look like. I'm just tired of pretending he is not what he is.
      Jul 9, 2015

      Robert Bohl's profile photo
      Robert Bohl
      And we all need to stop acting like we don't know what he's doing.
      Jul 9, 2015
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      Robert Bohl's profile photo
      Robert Bohl
      I did derail. I'm a bad person in that regard. I'm just sick of pretending he's not what he is. And with everyone else pretending he's not what he is.

      Sorry for being an asshole but I'm done being silenced too, so I should probably be blocked by everyone.

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      Robert Bohl's profile photo
      Robert Bohl
      Anyone who drops me based on that is welcome to fuck off, you stupid, insipid pig.

      And jesus christ, everything about you is worthless. Not only are your arguments pointless, circular, and trolling, but your shitty handle on the interface makes your posts visually chaotic and even more taxing and enervating to endure than your Byzantine bullshit already is. Which is really saying something. You manage to make an unendurable experience even more noxious, you foul pigfucker.

      But you're right. I'm psychotic. You sure pegged me. And unable to have a conversation.

      (Or maybe it's just you. Maybe your behavior earns you a literally unique response, in my entire Internet experience.)

      Delete
    8. What I appreciated more from this conversation was that once it was set aside what people THOUGHT Zak was saying and actually listened and questioned what they didn't understand lo and behold some common ground was reached.

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    9. It's easy if you don't do their usual thing of assuming bad faith

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    10. if i could project that hard id open a drive-in. dude is refusing to see past his own zeal. i mean, i would be really embarrassed if i wrote some crazy shit like that.

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  6. Wow. Yeah, that's not just rude and hateful, it's vicious, dangerous and concerning. Mark was WAY too forgiving, this kind of person needs to be ostracized and condemned.

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