There's been a recent one of those fistfight-in-a-fishbowl things online. A go-round of grousing lately online, dozens of responses.
Conservative gamers complaining but its hard to know what about "This sucks!!!" why? Who knows?
The only concrete complaint to emerge about anyone is they don't like my maps.
Allegedly, from the point of view of utility.
So, real question for anyone who can answer it--why is this:
...with all the information literally on the map.
Harder to use than this:
...where you have to flip through dozens or hundreds of pages to answer a question like "I succeeded on my Listen roll--what's around the corner?"?
Does anyone anywhere know?
25 comments:
How do you know the critic's political leanings? Is this happening in a right-wing gaming community or something?
@virgil clemens
I know because they say them.
The current fracas is on Twitter, in the replies to high-follower-account conservative gamer accounts, including people who are like "I don't agree with Zak's politics" etc.
Could just be "I don't like tgis person's politics" --> "I don't like this person" --> "I don't like this thing this person likes/made"
@Jason McCulley
So your answer is, then, "Yes, they are just stupid"
@zak sabbath
Yes. Sorry, I should have added that.
That dungeon geomorph has literally 2 dozen rooms for conservative gamers to stake the doors shut around them. They can't hide their desire to creep from room to room guarding their fear with maximum hit points and spells to dominate the environment. The Dim Fortress does not allow such conceited behavior. Want to rest? Sleep with snakes. Or in a room around a very thin crevasse. Or other rooms with shafts, putrid ichor, permanent darkness and corpses, a pool of water full of warrior limbs. I love the long, long hallway to open up the dungeon. That never fails to put a party on edge. We can't see the end of this hall and retreat is becoming more distant. Where are the inhabitants? Will we be trapped?? Just how big is this place??? Ha, I am borrowing your map for my game next month. I already have a series of encounters where Gith formerly guarded a displaced Illithid outpost, but needed a fresh map to tie the encounters together. Thanks!
@matrox
Well, sure but I have no problem with the other dungeon's design--its the map that I'm confused about. Why do people want less-informative maps? Why do they want to spend _more time_ flipping in the book?
Functionally speaking, when there's a small number of rooms, I think an illustrated and/or isometric map can work well. I suspect such maps are particularly effective with games run more loosely and when it's unnecessary to look elsewhere for stat blocks or other relevant information.
More complex encounters and rooms require more space to describe in a way that's organized to be easy to run at the table, which makes their inclusion on illustrated/isometric maps more difficult, especially if we get into more moderately sized dungeons.
Furthermore, when it comes to mapping, tracking distances to calculate the time required to traverse long hallways, etc., illustrated/isometric maps may not be as easy to use as a top-down grid map.
My preference when running games is having copies of traditional maps printed off outside of the book, and then having descriptions within the book that are well organized and include all relevant stat blocks. When it comes to those descriptions, an example of what I consider to be good design is Castle Xyntillan. And I'm not sure how Castle Xyntillan could be effectively presented with illustrated or isometric maps.
For what it's worth, I really enjoy your art and creative writing, and those are the big reasons why I've purchased your products.
@maasenstodt
Thanks
It goes without saying that its harder to fit the same amount of information on bigger maps.
What I've seen of CX is pretty bad Scooby Doo shit with overlong room descriptions to no purpose and Melan is part of the harassment mob so fuck that noise.
Ha, I was thinking about that after I left the comment. I think some players might feel safer with slower-acting DMs.
Ha, I haven't thought about Gabor Lux for a long time. He and I both have fond memories of classic Judges Guild and Gabor often tried to replicate Judges Guild's broad sandboxy-style with some good results. But even Judges Guild couldn't maintain that style over time with consistent coherency. It saddens me to learn Gabor is part of the hate mob.
There are a number of ways to make a random dungeon with a deck of cards and a few tables for instant on the spot gratification.
@mordenkainenedogpissbeer
Is that comment supposed to have anything to do with this blog entry it appears beneath?
@John
The fact that the dungeon is linear isn't relevant: that's not about the map style, so it's weird you wrote that at all. So that's not a good answer.
As for "re-usable" if you're going to write a whole new key for a blue map, theres no particular reason not to write new words on a white map. So that's not a good answer.
As for scale: its on the map, just like on the blue one. Just like the blue map: you have to look at the listed scale to see the scale. So that's not a good answer.
"
"maps should be clean graphic design, not artwork", i.e. they would like them to be less cluttered.
"
None of what you said explains why.
@john
"So if you're reusing the map, the illustrations no longer match the room contents - they are only useful the first time."
Yeah and no illustrations are useful zero times.
So: its not an _impediment_ to re-use, its just a thing that enhances the first and intended use. On second use, theres no picture, just exactly like the blue map.
"The scale on the white map is marked on the top and side, in 2D for an isometric map. This may seem a meaningless difference to you but for a traditional square-counter it assumes more significance because it doesn't put the information they want to be immediately available at all times at front and centre."
Even the "traditional dungeon crawler" wants:
-The contents of the room
-What the monster is
-What the monster looks like
-An idea of what the next area is like at a glance
So I don't buy that. The information I put on the map is all stuff EVEN THEY would want.
@John
"On the players rentering the dungeon, the illustrations become "clutter", "
Wait wait wait:
Are you talking about
A) Re-using the map for a completely different dungeon, or
B) The PCs leave the dungeon and re-enter
?
If A) Again: you're gonna have to cross out the words in your blue map and write new ones, i don't see how its hard to cross out the illustrations
if B) The illustrations remind you what room it is, even if the actual creature is dead, so it has a lot of utility.
-
"The side scales with isometric view are also not so easily parsed at a glance, especially if you're, say, calculating the amount of corridor a fireball will fill."
Yes. but to repeat myself, it is full of other information at a glance that they do want:
"
Even the "traditional dungeon crawler" wants:
-The contents of the room
-What the monster is
-What the monster looks like
-An idea of what the next area is like at a glance
So I don't buy that. The information I put on the map is all stuff EVEN THEY would want
"
So please, answer that point instead of dodging it in your next comment.
@John
""
Even the "traditional dungeon crawler" wants:
-The contents of the room
-What the monster is
-What the monster looks like
-An idea of what the next area is like at a glance
"
Type why you believe they don't (or claim they don't) want this information.
@John
On this blog, we discuss things all the way, not run away or dodge.
So, everyone has to answer questions or be banned (including me).
So, John if you don't thing they don't want
"
-The contents of the room
-What the monster is
-What the monster looks like
-An idea of what the next area is like at a glance
"
Then why do they not "prioritize" it--or whatever it is that makes them not want it on the map?
@John
If you don't answer questions you don't get to speak, bye bye.
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