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| There are gates? They fell? wtf? |
If you follow Warhammer 40k stuff (which I do a little because I'm running this), then you know that their crazed hatemob issue for the last few years is female space marines.
For many years Games Workshop sold no little space marine miniatures with female-looking heads sticking out of their big-ass cool space armor and the lore agreed that space marines were guys.
Many fans thought this should change because why not? A wild number of vocal people on the internet who had time to type thought it should not change at all.
Boy do these dudes type a lot on the Internet I tell you what.
Long ago I learned that one of the little tasks that The Almighty God Emperor has set aside for me personally is to explain why people do stupid things.
So, to wit, I interviewed a volunteer--a man, a stranger, A Dork Who Is Mad There Are Female Space Marines.
The interview was very long and had a lot of dead ends and a few places where the otherwise generous-with-his-time dork got mad about the process of being asked questions and had to be talked down from reverting from man to troll, but I eventually got there.
Anyway we spoke at length and his ideas are stupid.
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| The interview was conducted via Facebook |
The TL;DR
The dork has signed off on the following summary of his basic deal, which I wrote after the interview:
-His own words: "I identify as center right, so you could say I identify as conservative but the current Canadian conservative leader in the running is an asshole so I likely won't vote conservative in the next election."
-His own words: "I spent the majority of my adult life living in major cities, mostly Toronto, spent some time in Calgary and Vancouver as well. I live away from them now by choice, not because of lack of experience."
-He views Warhammer 40k as such a high-buy-in-hobby that changes in official policy could effectively change the pool of people who are interested in it and—longterm—affect the people he could know in the future and play with and meet at cons.
-He likes the people he knows already in the space (mostly dudes) because of shared sensibility.
-He wants to meet more dudes like that and play with them.
-Has had bad experiences with people I’d agree to call "moral scolds" in the RPG space irl where he says things of real value were fucked up for him in games and he identified these people as social justice advocates.
-He wants to deal with less people who seem like the scoldy social justice advocates he met irl in his real life game spaces.
-These advocates people seem to him to resemble the people who want female space marines online.
-He admits he can’t be sure whether they’re representative of the general ok-with-female-space-marines populace because he has limited knowledge of life in areas with cosmopolitan values.
-He doesn’t see female space marines as a big deal alone but he sees a chance they might precipitate a shift toward the company bringing in more people like them and less like himself.
-He doesn’t want to play with these people, he wants to play with his (self-identified) “socially awkward nerd dude” types. Those are his words.
-...even if many of the new people were not only super-hot but available and liked him and wanted to play with him he wouldn't want to.
-Because playing with people who share his sensibility is more interesting to him than any amount of sexual adventure. He's married but he would like to think he'd say the same thing before getting married.
-And he sees the benefits to any genuinely marginalized group of these changes in the game of Warhammer as marginal at best
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| by Dark Mechanic |
KAGE
I would assume you are for removing the "Shaman" and "Druid" creature types from MTG because it might offend real life Shamans and druids?
ZAK
Nope--and again, not anyone I know would give a fuck. Including the leftiest trans people ever to get arrested on LAPD property then come roll here as soon as they get out.
So let's say you were to play with people who are cool with female marines. Someone walks up to you and...what? What do they do that makes them no fun?
KAGE
I show up to GM, I announce that an evil tribe of orcs is invading the town, someone taps the x card 14 times, refusing to elaborate until I figure out that they didn't like the fact that I called them an "evil tribe".
ZAK
Ok, I am going to say this:
Last weekend I went to an event at the downtown LA Alamo Drafthouse. Official event for a corporate game company. The Alamo Drafthouse is an arty theater and a big one. Movie stars go see movies there with their hairdressers. This is a paid event. With strangers. At the table: 2 trans people, 2 movie industry people, one porn actor, one screenwriter. You CANNOT GET MORE "typical coastal elite gamers" than this crowd. What did we do?
Fought a tribe of evil gnolls. One dude played an orc barbarian. He played him as stupid. This was a totally normal day of D&D for everyone involved, not just me. These are not outliers. Do you believe me this happened in this way?
(Also: no X card or safety tools).
KAGE
I 100% believe it, but you are having the same problem I have with my athletes [dork is a wrestler] all the time.
You, an exception, an exemplar, are not representative of the industry, or community as a whole. Anyone who showed up for a game with you knew exactly what they were getting into beforehand.
ZAK
They didn't know I'd be there. I just paid for my ticket like everyone else. There were 5 tables of regular LA gamers who just wanted to play at the movie theater. No famous people were on the bill. Nobody was on the bill, it was just this [I link the event].
KAGE
Dude I believe you, and yet the code of conduct at the D&D convention in the city nearest me mandates an x card.
ZAK
Ok, i believe you
KAGE
Along with a whole bunch of other rules which amount to "If you do anything that anyone perceives as offensive, you get bounced and no refund".
ZAK
I am just saying that it looks like you are maybe so far geographically from the average person who might wanna play a female space marine that you are reacting to loud shitheads on the internet (cherry picked as examples by other loud shitty people on the internet) instead of to the average person who might want to play a female marine
KAGE
You have a very valid point. I am speaking only from my own experience.
My group has largely been immune to these issues, its only when I have travelled for either professional games or convention games.
However I have experienced these things happen to multiple other hobbies, and as far as I can tell it's the same people wanting female space marines.
Could I be wrong? Absolutely, but it's not a risk I'm willing to take without putting up a fight.
But at least you give me hope that if for whatever reason I find myself in LA again, I may still be able to find a game if I cough up the dough.
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| painted by ALESSANDRAPLAYS40K |
ON NOT HAVING THOUGHT THIS OUT VERY MUCH
KAGE
The percentage of changes made in the name of politics, social progress or anything else along those lines should be 0.
ZAK
So the removal of "homosexuality" from the list of insanities in an early RPG was bad?
KAGE
That's a very tough and thought provoking question.
[Zak note: He never thought about that before?]
I don't see anything wrong with removing it. On the other hand I would be opposed to changing it to appease a niche group.
Interesting conflict of interests here.
ZAK
What qualifies a group as a "niche group"?
KAGE
Any specific group. Perhaps I should elaborate.
I don't view homosexuality as a mental illness.
I however would not ever attempt to pressure a game system that listed it as one to change it.
ZAK
What makes a group "specific"?
KAGE
A specific way of differentiating them from the whole? There are a lot of different ways to do this.
ZAK
Well you said you wouldn't want to changing something to appeal to a "specific group"? What makes a group a "specific group" rather than just a "group"?
KAGE
If you have 10 people standing together you have a group. If you have 5 of them wearing red shirts that's a specific group.
You could say "that group over there" and it would now be specific as well.
ZAK
So if more than one person wants a change then it should not be made. A change should only be made if literally only one person likes it or if no-one likes it?
I am genuinely confused
KAGE
No that's poor choice of words for myself. So if there are 100 people in a group, and 10 of then complain about something, I would be opposed to changing something to appease those 10, if the other 90 were not interested.
ZAK
So a change should not be made unless the majority of the fanbase wants it?
KAGE
Yes. And it's incumbent on the minority who wants change, or the outsiders coming in, to convince the existing fan base that the change is worthwhile.
[Zak note: at this point the interview gets confusing because he gets confused between saying both "the company should do what it wants!" and "it should do what most fans want". It never gets sorted out, really. Then Kage opines he doesn't care that much about female marines, actually.]
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| painted by CerberusXTSpace Maid (3D model by Solflamer) |
ZAK
Let's not backslide to "you dont care" about this issue you've extensively described the shape of your worries about.
KAGE
Oh I don't not care at all, but I don't care as much as you seem to think I do either.
ZAK
You care way more than not at all which is the norm or "they can have candy if they want idk" which is probably the next most ordinary position. You have a whole narrative about why it represents something. You've thought it out more than most people--can we agree to that?
KAGE
Yes, but I have also put more thought into it over the course of the last 2 days than the previous 6 months before that.
[Zak note: So we're back to "I haven't thought this through".]
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| by nirach |
WHEN DID YOU LEAVE THE BIG CITY?
KAGE
8 years back. There was a whole not of reasons but it boiled down to the only real reason I was staying in the city was money.
I make a lot less out here but it is worth every penny, quality of life is better in every way except having to drive a long way for good sushi
ZAK
I think there's probably a larger overlap between wanting female space marines and knowing where the good sushi is than any other signifier you mentioned
KAGE
Lol that's probably true
ZAK
-----
KAGE
That doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
ZAK
Just be glad you don't like anime bro
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| painter unknown |
@rando
ReplyDeleteDeleted.
Sorry-no personal attacks allowed.
If you can apologize for making a personal attack and express your ideas without breaking the rules, you may comment.
@anonymous
ReplyDeleteSorry, non anonymous comments allowed.
Hey, Zak, I've been enjoying the use of your Vornheim to build a city for a game.
ReplyDeleteNow about the female space-marines. Now it would be cool to have Joan of Arc figures running around slaying Demons, but don't we already have these in the Sisters of Battle? These painted miniatures, while the one with the pink, frilly dress seems like a joke, the other pictures though, they just look like SOB but in heavier power-armour. Instead of space-marines why couldn't they be an expansion on the Sisters of Battle? I think there may have been fewer out cries as it seems more inline with the lore and internal consistency of the 41st millennium.
-Peace
@luke barass
ReplyDeleteBecause the miniatures look different, that's why.
Like: the miniatures I posted--you could tell they were female space marines instead of Sisters of Battle, because the armor looks different.
In a game or any fiction, especially one based around little miniatures you physically play with while engaging it, two things that look different -are- different.
Some people want to play with little miniatures that look a certain way.
Failing to accommodate them might have resulted in "fewer out cries as it seems more inline with the lore and internal consistency of the 41st millennium" but I can't imagine why any reasonable person would care about these outcries or the consistency of this made-up universe.
I want everyone to forget about drama and politics for a minute and just think about some sick old school Dungeons & Dragons.
ReplyDeleteI really hope to see new RPG material from you in the future Zak, you are basically my favorite RPG author. "Frostbitten & Mutilated" is the coolest 'campaign setting' I've ever read and it'd be great to see more like it.
I've never played warhammer so I don't know anything about space marines or what's in their pants.
I think calling an argument with some no name dude as an interview is a bit of an exaggeration.Regarding the addition of female characters my opinion is simple - gw, like the rest of the corporations, is not fighting for the rights, image and freedoms of women, people of color and other oppressed minorities. It's all done for the simple purpose of capitalizing on the shitstorm and saving money on an already existing group like sisters of battle. If gw wanted to promote the idea of gender freedom, they would have made a female chapter of emperor's children a long time ago.
ReplyDelete@JustWalking
ReplyDeleteDefine the word "interview".
Remember the rule on this blog is everyone answers everyone's questions, so if you don't answer your comment is tossed.
Of course, here is a list of definitions of the word interview
ReplyDelete>https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/interview
I think we can apply this definition here:
>"a conversation in which someone is asked questions about themselves or a subject they know about for a newspaper article, television show, etc."
But personally, I just see it as a pointless argument.
@JustWalking
ReplyDeleteSo you admit that it is, objectively, an interview and that you were totally wrong in your last comment.
An interview that you don't see a point in is still an interview.
As for "pointless"--
I personally learned this person's motives were slightly different than I imagined and different than literally every single claim about these folks' motives than any of the many claims and guesses that I saw on the internet.
Did you already know everything that this person revealed?
First, before I admit my mistake you can surely bring me a screenshot of you notifying the dude that this is a blog interview, right? Because the part you posted might give the impression that it's just an informal conversation.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, the whole point of my comment was not to fuck with words, but to express my point of view. In general, dude, well, is a simple ordinary man who wants to hang out with others like him, not afraid that in his company will come all sorts of extroverts, yes. In general, the dude's motivation to defend the hobby is understandable. You're not gonna DM a far-right guy, right?
@JustWalking
ReplyDelete1.
Screencap here:
https://armsinthewronghands.tumblr.com/post/757921360695738368/interviewing-a-guy-who-is-mad-about-female-space
2.
Maybe this is your first time here, but given my track record why would you ever doubt me?
3.
" a simple ordinary man who wants to hang out with others like him, not afraid that in his company will come all sorts of extroverts,"
Regardless of how he seems to you, until this interview I have never seen these people claim this motivation (nerdiness-as-goal)
I have seen:
The motivation is to "protect the hobby" (an intensely vague phrase)
The motivation is to protect Games Workshop from losing money
> 1
ReplyDeleteOk, i admit i was wrong about first part of my comment.
> 2
It was uh rhetorical question.
> 3
I think the motivation to leave the community as it was when he came into it is equally to protection of the hobby. And no one is defending GW's money. It's just that in my opinion (I don't know if it's true, since I'm from a different culture myself) fans are tired of GW trying to reach a new market, and blaming fans after failures.
@JustWalking
ReplyDeleteI am glad to see you are capable of recognizing you made a mistake.
Re: pointlessness
Regardless of what *you* knew before reading the interview:
-I did not know there were people so self-aware in their obsession with only being in a homogenous community of awkward people
-"leave the community as it was when he came into it is equally to protection of the hobby."
is a totally new justification to me, and one that suggests total insanity as a hobby changes constantly, not just because of the new prodcuts but because of the world changing (we have cell phones now)
-"And no one is defending GW's money."
Maybe not, but MANY people claim they are. They claim their main interest is the health of the company.
Nerds are very stupid that way--they love to phrase an "I don't like ____" as a "You should______" because they are obsessed with disguising taste as techical competence and pleading for their taste to dominate as practical business advice.
>-I did not know there were people so self-aware in their obsession with only being in a homogenous community of awkward people
ReplyDeleteYou say it in a way that makes it start to sound like something bad. Like, they may be "awkwad" to you, but that's just you having a different life experience than them.
>is a totally new justification to me, and one that suggests total insanity as a hobby changes constantly, not just because of the new prodcuts but because of the world changing (we have cell phones now)
I don't know, I started playing boardgames only about 7 years ago and well, so far I don't see any changes in the audience of the hobby. Yes, new people come to play, but a good half of them go to other hobbies. In my country they treat boardgames as some kind of hobby for nerds.
@JustWalking
ReplyDelete-If someone is so obsessed with being around (SELF-DESCRIBED!) awkward people that they are angry about whether a toy has a girl head it has advanced to "a problem".
-" I started playing boardgames only about 7 years ago and well, so far I don't see any changes in the audience of the hobby"
They all just went through a pandemic (including people who play the boardgame "Pandemic". That's just one massive difference, there are likely hundreds more one could name. The world changes constantly.