tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post7705384565817537878..comments2024-03-28T17:01:13.905-07:00Comments on Playing D&D With Porn Stars: Shiny Shiny BootsZak Sabbathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-78962116981831359382012-04-01T17:45:39.634-07:002012-04-01T17:45:39.634-07:00I still have no idea what your talking about.
Lit...I still have no idea what your talking about.<br />Literally, as in:<br />-Topic <br />-Point of View Meant To Be Expressed<br />-Reason It Is Underneath This Post<br />etcZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-30150706686343603942012-04-01T17:40:00.915-07:002012-04-01T17:40:00.915-07:00Heh, and here I assumed I wouldn't run into co...Heh, and here I assumed I wouldn't run into conservative thinking!<br /><br />Next time someone uses some part of your outer appearance to dismiss you, you can remember how easy it is to do rather than just be annoyed someone would do that to you.Callan S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15373053356095440571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-49600792503058339232012-04-01T15:15:05.826-07:002012-04-01T15:15:05.826-07:00I'm guessing your "ordie" (ordinance...I'm guessing your "ordie" (ordinanceman) seat mate is stationed in NAS Lemoore... Or NAS Purgatory as I called it in my time there... Still have the NAS Purgatory command ball cap I had embroidered special...<br /><br />What is to follow is mostly just observations and ruminations, feel free to skip it. :)<br /><br />I usually only had to have my boots polished during inspections, which were relatively few and far between after boot camp. On a day to day basis they just needed to be blackened so the scuff marks wouldn't show. But then I wasn't ever in the running for "sailor of the month". :)<br /><br />My day to day job was fixing airplane parts, and airplanes at my last duty station.<br /><br />The only times I had boring "shit" jobs was boot camp, on "duty" days, and when I was a transient trying to get back to my ship, that went on cruise when I was home on leave (vacation). And on duty days, at worst I might be on a working party that has to pick up the trash on the pier, or help onload supplies (think chain of guys tossing cases of food to each other along passageways, and down ladderwells into the storerooms in the bowels of the ship). Once I got a bit of rank (E-4 and above), not even working parties any more<br /><br />Otherwise, we had to clean our work and living spaces once a week, besides the daily take out the trash and sweep the floors bit.<br /><br />So in the US Navy, if you have an actual Rating (aka rate aka job) like Avionics Technician you don't usually spend your days painting rocks and such-like exciting stuff.<br /><br />In our off time, especially "at sea" we played a fuck-ton of RPGs. Traveler, D&D, Shadowrun, Champions, Battletech, Star Wars (original West End Games version), etc. I think I'm showing my age. :)<br /><br />If you've read this far, my comment about the rules: I remember pretty much every RPG rulebook mentioning something about being guidelines more than rules, and the reader is free to alter, drop, or make up new rules at whim. In fact, my Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game manual says on page 28 (the gamemastering section) "If our suggestions get in the way - toss 'em out. Having a good time is more important than attention to picayune details."<br /><br />And I think someone that HAS TO strictly adhere to every rule in an RPG needs to get a life.freddyboomboomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08835568456556169296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-80915615957885517512012-04-01T14:28:52.602-07:002012-04-01T14:28:52.602-07:00If there are field tasks that are secretly but not...If there are field tasks that are secretly but not apparently meaningful, then there could easily be training tasks that are secretly but not apparently meaningful.<br /><br />A rule that you don't need to know why until a later date or changed and relaxed circumstance is fine. No different than all the other "act responsible now, be totally not on the weekend" rules the military already has.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-64113345082501190392012-04-01T11:28:38.151-07:002012-04-01T11:28:38.151-07:00I will do my best to give my 2 cents,
If you make...I will do my best to give my 2 cents,<br /><br />If you make people do meaningful work, they may be motivated to do work because it is meaningful.<br /><br />If you make people do meaningless work, they will do work because they are told to and no other reason (since there isn't one).<br /><br />If people do work that is meaningful, and are given a task that appears to be unrepentantly meaningless, they may not dutifully obey that task.<br /><br />That task may be very important, just not in any way the soldier knows, or should know. It may be meaningful because well, someone gets to be the king and someone gets to be the pawn. It would then require that the soldier motivated by meaning have great trust in his superiors, which may not exist as he may be given an order by someone he didn't know existed 30 seconds ago (the chaos of battle).<br /><br />So if you are given a task you find meaningless from someone you've never met before, you must be able and trained to do it anyways. Your job isn't to find meaning, its to do it the best you can. <br /><br />If you don't have that kind of discipline, the discipline to do things that are stupid or meaningless, it really makes it hard to orchestrate large scale state sponsored homicide.<br /><br />(I am not insulting others who have also served, but I quickly found it uncomfortably weird that its a war crime to shoot the dictator who started the war, but A-Ok to shoot the innocent people drafted against their will to fight for him.)Zzarchovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07714805545939725730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-85416672681500477822012-04-01T02:01:51.331-07:002012-04-01T02:01:51.331-07:00How drunk are you?How drunk are you?Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-85861131430281819702012-03-31T23:27:00.015-07:002012-03-31T23:27:00.015-07:00Hello,
It's pretty obvious to everyone that s...Hello,<br /><br />It's pretty obvious to everyone that some guitars are better quality than others. Put a great guitarist on a poor quality guitar - you wont get the best out of that guitarist.<br /><br />The guitar IS part of the performance. An integral part, lending various qualities to it. Yes, it's not the entirety of the performance - that does not mean it's 100% not a part of the performance, either!<br /><br />You know the parallel I'm drawing. This is why I think trying to say it's ALL up to the mythical awesome GM is...missplaced.<br /><br />And when it's NOT all up to the GM, then it's a question of whether a proposed rule actually carries any load itself, or it leaves it all on the GM's shoulders as much as if he had used no rules at all.<br /><br />Here's a deadbeat rule I'm making up now (I'm going to lay into my own creation!) - roll 1D20. On a 20, something awesome happens!<br /><br />This rule is ass - it carries not even part of the creative weight for the GM.<br /><br />If you want to talk about rules where the GM carries the majority of the creative weight, like 90% of it, okay, fair enough. Or even "Hae, you think the GM carries 100% of the weight, but you is wrong!", cause maybe I am wrong.<br /><br />But making up rules where the GM carries 100% of the creative weight - in all my 300 years of gaming, that's just no good.<br /><br />Wait? 300? I mean 3000! Now you're impressed!Callan S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15373053356095440571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-43069540112347345112012-03-31T16:42:08.109-07:002012-03-31T16:42:08.109-07:00Man, some of what Zak said here reminds me of thin...Man, some of what Zak said here reminds me of things my Dad told me 18 years ago when I was about to join the military. He did 20 years in the army and was in Vietnam. He warned me before I went into the military about the unnecessary busy work created to keep the troops occupied. Such as repainting walls that didn't need repainting. He thought that time would be better spent training, or heaven forbid, leaving work early to spend time with family and friends.<br /><br />I'm doing a reserve air force tour right now in the Middle East, and a lack of critical thinking is still prevalent. When Libya kicked off, a lot of the guys wished they were helping with that fight. Not because they believed in some cause... they didn't even talk much about what the cause was. The biggest reason they wanted to go was that they would get combat pay, but be able to spend their off time getting drunk and laid in the Med, as most of the involved bases were European. The rights or wrongs of the conflict didn't readily come into discussion.<br /><br />I can't say it is the military, either. I've also dabbled in the rules-heavy corporate world and politics and the same kind of blind 'follow-the-leader' attitude is there in any large organization. Morality is not a factor, but lying and cheating are in play if it can get someone ahead. The only thought that is developed is how much the person is being paid, and what might be threatening the paycheck. If the organization demands mind-numbing busy work from subordinates, than that is what leadership gets because rocking the boat might harm the chance for a higher paycheck later.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03143149799871392000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-73664471031106819082012-03-31T11:25:21.297-07:002012-03-31T11:25:21.297-07:00@noisms
Regardless of the politics or practicalit...@noisms<br /><br />Regardless of the politics or practicality of the useful task in question (which are debatable in any situation and are not the point):<br /><br />Standing guard is an apparently but _not actually_ meaningless task.<br /><br />No-one has yet given any compelling reason why soldiers could not train for such tasks via other apparently _but not actually_ meaningless tasks. It would be more efficient.<br /><br />The only argument forwarded--that there are not that many meaningful tasks--is not convincing.<br /><br />Either someone can try to make it convincing or make a different argument.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-81740948924998676862012-03-31T10:51:37.689-07:002012-03-31T10:51:37.689-07:00Sure, they could "clean up" Detroit like...<i>Sure, they could "clean up" Detroit like you say - and then great, suddenly you've lost loads of job opportunities for unemployed civilians in Detroit. </i><br /><br />Although the influx of people with money to the downtown core might lead to an increase in the robustness of the local economy.huthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16502682297320819595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-64947582792213152672012-03-31T10:50:03.129-07:002012-03-31T10:50:03.129-07:00Or a rule of such sublime specificity and complexi...Or a rule of such sublime specificity and complexity that it envelops their entire consciousness in Zahirian pocket universe of singular contemplation, so they can't post on RPG.net any more.huthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16502682297320819595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-22008802475801230702012-03-31T07:39:12.770-07:002012-03-31T07:39:12.770-07:00Zak, I know your answer to this up the thread was ...Zak, I know your answer to this up the thread was that they could tidy up Kabul, but that's a bit of a flip answer - most US troops aren't stationed in Afghanistan, and the rationale behind reconstruction efforts should be that Afghanistan does that itself.<br /><br />Sure, they could "clean up" Detroit like you say - and then great, suddenly you've lost loads of job opportunities for unemployed civilians in Detroit. <br /><br />On top of that, you want to teach discipline in apparently meaningless tasks precisely because they are meaningless. You don't want to cultivate a sense among soldiers of "Why am I doing this since it's meaningless?" You want to cultivate a sense that "I will do what I am told, because even though I don't know why and it seems meaningless, I assume there is a reason."noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-67815998659449464932012-03-30T21:43:38.587-07:002012-03-30T21:43:38.587-07:00My response to this would be to repeat things I...My response to this would be to repeat things I've already said in the comments and ask if you read them so I guess I'm not going to take the time to rewrite them again.<br /><br />Engage if you are so inclined.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-81015209839490274202012-03-30T21:32:53.492-07:002012-03-30T21:32:53.492-07:00There's two kinds of soldiers. There are the o...There's two kinds of soldiers. There are the ones that go on watch, and get killed because they get distracted thinking about changing lightbulbs... And there is the kind that go on watch, and for eight or twelve hours straight look at that same endless boring horizon and manage to spot the bad guys sneaking up on the command post, then frag them getting a bronze star or whatever in the process. Doing boring needless stuff is very necessary to practice for the times when you really need the skills to complete the boring needful tasks.<br /><br />They have plenty of guys already, who can change light bulbs, and contractors as well to help change the light bulbs, so the soldiers don't need to do it and can focus on combat skills.<br /><br />The difference in training right for the actual situation, life or death. No inbetween. You either watch the horizon skillfully, or you get fragged by the sneaky mofo's that infiltrate your line of defense (Called a perimeter in militarese).<br /><br />The shining part is just practice for the real thing...GameDaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15106807777418881710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-41512293598991061792012-03-30T13:38:53.527-07:002012-03-30T13:38:53.527-07:00My understanding from the military who I am acquai...My understanding from the military who I am acquainted with is that they very much _are_ construction workers since about 2003 and that they have always been--if not slaves--then people expected to fuckton of cleaning all the time.<br /><br />And while I do appreciate the ability to stand at post and do nothing is a useful skill I fail to see how cleaning a boot is somehow a more soldierly task than changing a lightbulb.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-42308128713075943492012-03-30T13:32:56.000-07:002012-03-30T13:32:56.000-07:00Sure, but soldiers aren't construction workers...Sure, but soldiers aren't construction workers or slaves - their tasks are usually centric to combat readiness.<br /><br />Boot cleaning is a minor task taken out of context for the most part (and many infantrymen do seriously need to keep their boots clean for a number of real and practical reasons).<br /><br />Most of my time spent in a mechanized infantry type role was in battle training. Fire team movement, target practice, tactical theory, gun cleaning, HMMWV maintenance, etc.Mr. Bluehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07027893907355004146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-52189948597269569372012-03-30T13:28:06.368-07:002012-03-30T13:28:06.368-07:00Officer-Enlisted antagonism is one of the great, t...Officer-Enlisted antagonism is one of the great, time-honored traditions of the military :)Mr. Bluehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07027893907355004146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-4171366219554248352012-03-30T13:26:32.433-07:002012-03-30T13:26:32.433-07:00As I have repeated several times--while, yes, doin...As I have repeated several times--while, yes, doing a meaningless repetitive task requires discipline, so does doing a meaningful repetitive task.<br /><br />Suggestions for meaningful repetitive tasks as-yet not undertaken are peppered throughout these comments.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-15916310204362573042012-03-30T13:22:49.759-07:002012-03-30T13:22:49.759-07:00Polishing boots well takes a measure of self-disci...Polishing boots well takes a measure of self-discipline - that's the actual point of the task.<br /><br />You don't want soldiers who can't discipline themselves to sit still for 20 minutes and shine a boot... imagine some attention-deficit idiot trying to man a strategically important foxhole who can't stay focused on a ridiculously boring task. Like looking straight ahead for 10 hours in search of bad guys. Or another guy, who ignores his general orders and abandons his seemingly unimportant post before he was properly relieved because hey, "it's just busywork".<br /><br />Some leaders, usually fresh out of ROTC or West Point (2LT "butterbars") break rules mostly because they know how smart they are - those are the leaders that get people killed.<br /><br />My general statement: <b>Good leaders know the rules, but also know the right time to break them.</b> <br /><br />It applies in real life as much as it does in gaming!Mr. Bluehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07027893907355004146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-63685324150835331302012-03-30T13:18:32.836-07:002012-03-30T13:18:32.836-07:00Well it would appear, MR Blue, that you and David ...Well it would appear, MR Blue, that you and David above have a difference of opinion or observation.<br /><br />I, not having ever served, would be curious to hear you two have a conversation about it.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-91067986044249482012-03-30T13:11:07.568-07:002012-03-30T13:11:07.568-07:00Enlisted (which I was) are also encouraged to act ...Enlisted (which I was) are also encouraged to act creatively. The focus is more narrow than an officer's, but the US Military always encourages soldiers - of all levels - to find creative ways of accomplishing missions.<br /><br />Officers just think more highly of themselves while enlisted work for a living ;)Mr. Bluehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07027893907355004146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-46247371134768293322012-03-30T10:59:29.802-07:002012-03-30T10:59:29.802-07:00And not enough needful tasks? Man, have you seen K...And not enough needful tasks? Man, have you seen Kabul? It could use some work.<br /><br />And, as a famous comedian once said, if they're stateside, when they're done with Kabul they could get started on Detroit.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-60716680467114568802012-03-30T10:57:40.319-07:002012-03-30T10:57:40.319-07:00@David
Well,if it is all psychological, then that...@David<br /><br />Well,if it is all psychological, then that would seem to go to Dixon's point: the people who need and are willing to do that rather than who dedicate themself to a task because they see the ends of that task have a value they value and are willing to sacrifice autonomy for it are...maybe not the most versatile thinkers on or off the battlefield and could be a net minus.<br /><br />"Could". I'm no general.<br /><br />It does feed rather neatly into the GM thing though: if you _need_ the rules you're probably not the kind of person whose good at making rules.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-73185123075519271582012-03-30T10:51:28.131-07:002012-03-30T10:51:28.131-07:00@Alex J: The Spanish Anarchists managed to run the...@Alex J: The Spanish Anarchists managed to run their militia on the principle of informed consent, and they hardly even got massacred at all.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07090296806321882601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-25085892930016185562012-03-30T10:45:16.261-07:002012-03-30T10:45:16.261-07:00Zak, there are not enough pointful tasks available...Zak, there are not enough pointful tasks available to combat soldiers. The job is long terms of boredom punctuated by minutes of intense action. Aside from the traditional aspects mentioned above, the mind-numbing busy work in many ways is used to fill that down time. These repetitive tasks and shared experience also serve to break down the individuality of the soldiers. Time spent together doing the same thing to try to look the same supports that breakdown. This erosion of the sense of self is a part of military team-building and has been for generations. Also, an ability to follow ridiculous orders, even knowing they are ridiculous is something a person needs to get used to in the military.David Rollinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04677943842060923114noreply@blogger.com