tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post7574621330075721417..comments2024-03-28T22:00:35.840-07:00Comments on Playing D&D With Porn Stars: The Flat Earth ParadoxZak Sabbathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-48244854036670595892018-06-07T16:01:35.496-07:002018-06-07T16:01:35.496-07:00Welp. I played Fate, though I only knew evil hat f...Welp. I played Fate, though I only knew evil hat from John wick who hired Lenny from there I think. Fred Hicks is an entirely new name for me and from what I've just googled can stay that way.<br /><br />Kingdom death looks awesome thanks for the heads-up.<br /><br />Wikipedia says 4chan was brought to it's unholy life by a former something awful user so there's that O.o never heard of it before.<br />Also never heard of story games or Fannon.<br /><br />Green Ronin is a shame, I really like their GoT RPG and heared good things about mutants and masterminds. :/<br />I also like some stuff on the Forge tbh. From time to time Google ends me up on Rpg.net.<br /><br />I'm not sure if I want to know more. But I might have to read more on that :/Jan P.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-33626541216953685492018-06-07T05:37:10.779-07:002018-06-07T05:37:10.779-07:00@Jan P
FATE is the signature game of a company ca...@Jan P<br /><br />FATE is the signature game of a company called Evil Hat run by Fred Hicks and Rob Donoghue, they are aggressively puritanical and launched "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!"-stye attacks against Kingdom DEath (google it) and then harassed feminists for disagreeing.<br /><br />Something Awful is like 4chan but you have to pay for it and is dominated by people (including game designers) who invent conspiracy theories about other game designers<br /><br />Story Games was the home of indie-narrativist RPGs and they were the home of outraged performatively-woke takes calling pretty much everything in games bad but totally inarticulate when asked for details.<br /><br />Sean Patrick Fannon writes RIFTS material and is a sexual harasser, Green ROnin is a company that makes a lotts performatively woke statements and hired a sexual harasser and RPGnet is a game forum thats kinda like Something Awful (same moderators) and recently one of their moderators turned out to be a rapist.<br /><br />If you're not patronizing any of these institutions then the detals here are largely academic but if you want to know more, ask I guess?Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-73210908630835757032018-06-06T19:16:03.206-07:002018-06-06T19:16:03.206-07:00Hi, first time poster.
"Now maybe it takes m...Hi, first time poster.<br /><br />"Now maybe it takes more than 8 years to turn someone from the shitty path?"<br />From my experience this is very dependent on the people and their situation. People that far down only change if fecal matter hits the rotatory air impeller. I've been in clinical therapy and there are only two kind of people who seek to truly change: people who just crashed and people who have crashed before and notice they need help again. This included "the state says, I'm unfit as a parent, he takes my kids" to "my relationship crashed" to "I punched someone I love". For me it was not leaving the house for weeks, not being able to muster the strength to go to the kitchen and toilet for basic human functions and contemplating suicide.<br /><br />Unfortunately that means those miserable people are likely to take their lives or cause harm to others. But you can't force someone to self reflect who doesn't want to. At least I know of no way, the only way seems to be Asphalt reality. Therapy is hard but nothing compared to the suffering before.<br /><br /><br />Also: I'm a little late for the party. I started D&D at 8yo and never had to use the web to talk about games. Could someone elaborate on the below examples for the unknowing me?<br /><br />"It didn't work: they instead resorted to hate speech and harassment (FATE, Something Awful, Story Games) sexually harassed people (Sean Patrick Fannon, folks Green Ronin) and raped people (at RPGnet)."Jan P.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-38303575290262132232018-06-05T23:33:13.305-07:002018-06-05T23:33:13.305-07:00@Zak
"That seems like a very low standard bu...@Zak<br /><br />"That seems like a very low standard but most people who behave poorly can't even do that."<br /><br />In the examples I'm thinking of, the administrators and moderators have defined their principles, and their definitions are sufficient in putting forth their intent. They're simply really, really bad at operating in the environment they insist they want, in my experience.Black Vulmeahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04270071699114783644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-65079979696268656672018-06-05T19:43:43.482-07:002018-06-05T19:43:43.482-07:00@The Crusty Old Grognard
I don't see any spla...@The Crusty Old Grognard<br /><br />I don't see any splachback. I specifically identify a _kind_ of nerd and say why they do a bad thing. <br /><br />If you're not them it shouldn't be splashing on you<br /><br />Is there a statement in the post that you feel implicates a wider group?Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-86011978964614465662018-06-05T19:23:39.069-07:002018-06-05T19:23:39.069-07:00@Black Vulmea
While in both those cases I'm ...@Black Vulmea<br /><br />While in both those cases I'm aware of people behaving hypocritically, I think it's not ever useful to talk about ideas like "free speech" or "safe spaces" vaguely.<br /><br />Anyone can be into "free speech" but (with no violation of free speech principles) excoriate a kind of speech unfairly, or make a communication private that shouldn't be, etc.<br /><br />The important part is to not to define terms ourselves and then call people out for violating a standard we invented (Oh, you lie tasty food but not pie??? HYpocrite!) , but to start with demanding the people define their own terms and principles and then at the _minimum_ live up to them.<br /><br />That seems like a very low standard but most people who behave poorly can't even do that.<br /><br />Once you clear out the dead wood by doing that, then do all the hard work of articulating your own standards (ignoring theirs or the language they use to discuss them) and making people meet themZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-54818898162252197112018-05-25T01:29:52.880-07:002018-05-25T01:29:52.880-07:00Beware those who don't practice what they prea...Beware those who don't practice what they preach, eg, the forum dedicated to creating a safe space being run by craven bullies, and the adamantly pro-free speech forum moderator who moved his words, and those of his most ardent followers, behind a members' only screen.Black Vulmeahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04270071699114783644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-31304777422945292852018-05-24T17:10:11.035-07:002018-05-24T17:10:11.035-07:00Nah, no worries. You have just mentioned this (or...Nah, no worries. You have just mentioned this (or similar things) enough times on your blog over the years that I was wondering if I'd missed an academic study or something. Thanks for the info!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-16602754043233142692018-05-24T12:23:46.394-07:002018-05-24T12:23:46.394-07:00@Billiam
On the demographics the way I did it (in...@Billiam<br /><br />On the demographics the way I did it (in 2014 or '15) was I looked at the 60 or so people who were most aggressively attacking me vs the 60 odd people who were most aggressively defending me.<br /><br />Racially it's pretty easy: they're all white except 2 people. There's literally more people-of-color in just my game group by itself than in the whole harassment clique.<br /><br />If you want me to post the list here I can, or if you'd rather I privately emailed you I can do that. Let me know what you preferZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-86696063190055570512018-05-24T07:15:14.617-07:002018-05-24T07:15:14.617-07:00Actually, the link you posted (I didn't see it...Actually, the link you posted (I didn't see it on my monochrome browser at first) details pretty well the second part, please ignore that, I would be interested in your source(s) on the demographics though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-42225482448818227502018-05-24T07:13:12.637-07:002018-05-24T07:13:12.637-07:00"In addition to being disproportionately whit..."In addition to being disproportionately white, old, male, married, religious, parents, and less likely to actually play games, RPG harassers are more likely to be suffering mentally illness."<br /><br />Do you mind supporting this statement with documentation? Both the demographic aspect, as well as the mental-illness aspect. You make statements about this (at least, the demographic part) pretty often and I would like to see your source(s). ThanksAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-89403993828659336562018-05-23T04:54:54.800-07:002018-05-23T04:54:54.800-07:00I tried so hard to be offended by this article, bu...I tried so hard to be offended by this article, but I couldn't be because when you dust off the edgy, at the core of it you make some very good points. A bit too much splashback on your average harmless nerd though, maybe? Could be me being a bit over-protective of my dudes and viewing things through a biased lens though I guess.<br /><br />Still, great thought provoking article and looking forward to running some stuff out of Frostbitten. I'm looking forward to the hardcopy arriving.The Crusty Old Grognardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08795451210712814526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-24981533488334041062018-05-11T17:58:17.097-07:002018-05-11T17:58:17.097-07:00@WrongOnTheInternet
Well on a scale outside speci...@WrongOnTheInternet<br /><br />Well on a scale outside specifically RPGs it's just one of a number of things that make people act in politically and socially conservative ways and you deal with that in much bigger ways which are outside the scope of what I think the D&D w Pornstars audience can effectively do much about right now.<br /><br />I am talking about immediate steps people can take to improve things in a space they are in, in the relatively short termZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-28743525160607953202018-05-11T17:50:22.764-07:002018-05-11T17:50:22.764-07:00Fair enough, for a community that only talks about...Fair enough, for a community that only talks about RPGs, that's the way to do it. I thought you were talking about nerd communities where other unrelated stupid ideas propagated alongside them.WrongOnTheInternethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10307593854612561638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-50476509973158564342018-05-11T17:41:48.603-07:002018-05-11T17:41:48.603-07:00@WrongOnTheInternet
They aren't "maybes&...@WrongOnTheInternet<br /><br />They aren't "maybes" though. <br /><br />Someone doing evil because they're stupid isn't --in terms of consequences-- any different than someone doing evil because they're evil.<br /><br />The solution is: have a community that works, produce things of undeniable value, and don't allow the "shittier but larger" community to have any say at all because nothing they do can matter if you completely economically and conversationally cut them off.<br /><br />I man nobody in RPGs is much affected by problems in the amateur golf world--because they're not connected. So if people are like that: they're golfers. Get them the fuck away from anything we care about.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-13413234930951375272018-05-11T17:36:00.177-07:002018-05-11T17:36:00.177-07:00That internet rehab comment might be true; I don&#...That internet rehab comment might be true; I don't have any evidence at hand to say otherwise. <br /><br />I guess my worry is that we toss out all the "maybes" and have a nice community bubble, and then get side-swiped when the shittier but larger community does something that negatively impacts us all. If that can't be prevented, then we might as well toss people out of the community for bad arguments and bad ideas. I don't like the way that future looks, though, which is why I'm looking for an alternative.WrongOnTheInternethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10307593854612561638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-59196629111496781832018-05-11T17:21:50.383-07:002018-05-11T17:21:50.383-07:00@WrongOnTheInternet
There is: it's called the...@WrongOnTheInternet<br /><br />There is: it's called therapy. And other places in the real world.<br /><br />But even if these places didn't exist: there is literally not one example of a shitty RPG person who does that stuff being rehabbed on the internet. So it isn't the place.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-20853133829557023052018-05-11T17:05:00.861-07:002018-05-11T17:05:00.861-07:00I think there's a certain level of social imma...I think there's a certain level of social immaturity or a lack of critical thinking skills a lot of these folks have. It's to the point that they think refusing to answer questions is "maintaining their position", or that they don't have a good idea of how to argue fairly. Being in a community where those rules are explicitly enforced and explained, might help. <br /><br />That doesn't mean any of us have an obligation to tolerate shitty ideas or trolls (or people indistinguishable from trolls); but there needs to be a place for people to pick up the basics they clearly won't get anywhere else.WrongOnTheInternethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10307593854612561638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-84166157500282654792018-05-11T16:39:13.817-07:002018-05-11T16:39:13.817-07:00@WrongOnTheInternet
Past a certain threshold that...@WrongOnTheInternet<br /><br />Past a certain threshold that doesn't work. The threshold is "Will they answer questions when asked?"<br /><br />Bluntly: Over the past 8 years lots of people have tried that hundreds of times and that hasn't worked.<br /><br />Once a person refuses to answer questions, they never, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, ever turn out to be wait actually a good, smart person. It only ever is a sign they are going to get worse.<br /><br />The "misled socially isolated" people who refuse to engage? They never do engage. <br /><br />They become shittier and shittier and make things worse for people.<br /><br />Now maybe it takes more than 8 years to turn someone from the shitty path? But that means they do 8 years of damage while we all wait for them to act sane. And on that time scale and the number of idiots out there you might as well give up on having a useful conversation if you're going to tolerate them all because there'll always be one new idiot who is going to take 8 years to rehab.<br />Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-11413742066272155072018-05-11T16:32:50.757-07:002018-05-11T16:32:50.757-07:00I agree with you on the "Don't tolerate s...I agree with you on the "Don't tolerate sociopaths or bullshit", but I'd like to see more "gently explain to the non-sociopath why what they're saying is bullshit". Trying to separate misled socially isolated folks from dipshit trolls isn't a task that anyone should be forced to do, though.WrongOnTheInternethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10307593854612561638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-25668978188170432172018-05-11T10:21:09.437-07:002018-05-11T10:21:09.437-07:00@WrongOnTheInternet
They are already part of cons...@WrongOnTheInternet<br /><br />They are already part of conspiracy theorist groups. The only thing you have to do then is: Once they start to say bullshit: not listen to them or give them a platform. If someone can't explain themselves rationally, they don't get listened to.<br /><br />For MANY years people tried to do the other thing: coddle them and listen to their concerns.<br /><br />It didn't work: they instead resorted to hate speech and harassment (FATE, Something Awful, Story Games) sexually harassed people (Sean Patrick Fannon, folks Green Ronin) and raped people (at RPGnet).<br /><br />At a certain point you have to call the experiment of being nice to sociopaths a failure and simply get them away from the conversation.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-73245328302900639492018-05-11T10:15:11.437-07:002018-05-11T10:15:11.437-07:00Is nerdom a thing outside of the USA? Because I li...Is nerdom a thing outside of the USA? Because I life abroad, and everything I know about nerdom, I learned from bullshit American sitcoms.<br />anonimous, emperador en el exiliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13204169087393199959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-74989394469775800042018-05-10T21:00:34.475-07:002018-05-10T21:00:34.475-07:00I'm hoping there's more to the cure than j...I'm hoping there's more to the cure than just not being tolerant of bullshit: if the problem with these nerds is social isolation and they have badly formed ideas, doesn't that just push them in the direction of conspiracy theorist groups?WrongOnTheInternethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10307593854612561638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-86461238756140102292018-05-08T18:29:06.434-07:002018-05-08T18:29:06.434-07:00@heyjames4
Yes--though in the case of the smith i...@heyjames4<br /><br />Yes--though in the case of the smith it may be more about exclusion between social classes (the one who wears the armor vs the one who make sit) broadly than about the kind of intra-class exclusion that "nerd" implies.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-68451175183686789492018-05-08T18:03:42.182-07:002018-05-08T18:03:42.182-07:00re: The part where "nerd" is something t...re: The part where "nerd" is something that the military industrial complex did TO its craftsmen class. <br /><br />See this <a href="http://www.monbiot.com/1994/01/01/smith-and-the-devil/" rel="nofollow">article</a> from 1994 about anthropology and an ancient <a href="https://curiosity.com/topics/the-smith-and-the-devil-is-the-worlds-oldest-fairy-tale-curiosity/" rel="nofollow">fable</a><br /><br />Pointing out that social ostracization of craftsmen types is a recurring motif in human societies.heyjames4https://www.blogger.com/profile/16001886521427679105noreply@blogger.com