tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post7053138617811016650..comments2024-03-28T22:00:35.840-07:00Comments on Playing D&D With Porn Stars: 5th Edition Skills vs Old School SkillsZak Sabbathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-68720389816794040022017-04-21T14:38:04.736-07:002017-04-21T14:38:04.736-07:00For Intimidate, maybe just switch it from a CHA sk...For Intimidate, maybe just switch it from a CHA skill to a STR skill? Sean McCoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08319575270937358180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-44570239377572105482017-01-27T13:35:25.057-08:002017-01-27T13:35:25.057-08:001. You haven't explained how to assign a playe...1. You haven't explained how to assign a player character a climb speed in characer gen<br /><br />2. Your idea about strength is wrong and not intelligent. By that logic an 8-pound monkey should always be a worse climber than a human<br /><br />3. This is because you haven't thought about how "climbing" actually encompasses a variety of different activities and how body weight in _relation_ to strength is the important factor. ie the more you weigh, the more you need strength and climbing a rope in gym is different than climbing a tree<br /><br />4. Just having a climb speed eliminates the possibility of climbing-based risk and challenge. If you're not rolling, then it's 100% certain you can climb something, which gets rid of a lot of the fun in climbingZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-67065555234552230242017-01-27T09:25:04.804-08:002017-01-27T09:25:04.804-08:00Just want to point out that things in the game tha...Just want to point out that things in the game that should be really good climbers, like a monkey, can have a climb speed. Normal climbing with athletics takes 2 feet of movement for every 1 foot you move. Using a climb speed doesn't have this limitation. There's no need to make climbing based on acrobatics instead of athletics. Anyone who's climbed a rope in gym class, or done rock climbing, can tell you that climbing is limited by your strength. If you're not strong enough to lift your body weight, you're SOL.Lex Starwalkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09392435740633939806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-12668055182959076262017-01-15T09:35:06.138-08:002017-01-15T09:35:06.138-08:00This just popped into my head as a possibility, no...This just popped into my head as a possibility, not sure how practical it is: what if they're all Charisma-based, but they're all opposed checks and the skill determines what stat opposes it? A bouncer with Intimidate makes CHA-based checks opposed by the target's CON; a lawyer with Persuasion makes CHA-based checks opposed by INT; a con man with Deception opposes WIS. You can take more than one skill and be good against more than one stat, but having just one limits your ability to bring around targets that happen to be strong against your skill - tough guys face down the bouncer, sages see through the lawyer, and the wise aren't blinded by the slick con man.Jonathonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12424548045152722964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-43190187492373352282017-01-13T05:27:00.506-08:002017-01-13T05:27:00.506-08:00tone is not an issue here
i think the barbarian v...tone is not an issue here<br /><br />i think the barbarian vs connoisseur issue is covered by allowing a player inspecting a cultural object to roll perception OR history (or whatever) whichever is higher.<br /><br />I don;t think that leaves much room for "investigate" (sans specialty). I mean, realistically, who has "investigate" but no specific knowledge attached and no general ability to perceive?Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-19286628607759313182017-01-13T05:16:20.539-08:002017-01-13T05:16:20.539-08:00I did write a too much. I was a little drunk at th...I did write a too much. I was a little drunk at the time so it seemed appropriate. I guess I was trying to explain why certain skills bother people more than others.<br /><br />I wrote 'should' as in to discern which tasks were appropriate for each skill.<br /><br />Perception skill applies to things that are of the moment. Do you see ambushers right now? Did you see the ambassador dropping poison in the king's goblet? Do you notice the scratches on the floor next to secret door?<br /><br />Investigation applies to things that require more careful study and a knowledge about the object in question.<br /><br />This is why perception is a Wisdom skill, as Wisdom also covers keenness of senses while investigation is an Intelligence skill, which is more a reflection of one's education and experience.<br /><br />If you treat them the same that would mean the barbarian scout with eagle eyes would also somehow be very apt at discovering forgeries in documents - and that the scholar would be apt at avoiding ambushes in the wilderness.<br /><br />Just my 2 cents. I hope I didn't come off combative.morikahnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03204033035155948564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-85793292975412616842017-01-12T20:47:22.346-08:002017-01-12T20:47:22.346-08:00(that;s 3, sorry)(that;s 3, sorry)Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-66918049463783676112017-01-12T20:46:41.097-08:002017-01-12T20:46:41.097-08:001. I didn't say it was difficult, I said it wa...1. I didn't say it was difficult, I said it was annoying,<br /><br />Stopping the game to calculate extra numbers is annoying, and using an ability check is one less step.<br /><br />2. You wrote about a lot of things that were not in dispute, but very little about why your description could not fit under "perception".<br /><br />You simply wrote "it should..." but not why.<br /><br />I see no reason a character could not be good at both seeing stealth and spotting forgeries--they are very related skills and it is rare that a character in fiction is good at one but not the other.<br /><br />Your "that guy" character has 4 issues:<br />-this person has never turned up in any game I've seen<br />-Sherlock would also require player skill to recognize specific clues so bad analogy<br />-Even if someone was good at spotting bothe stealth and anomalies, I don't see how that in any way makes the game worse or limits possibilitiesZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-11586454867067399362017-01-12T20:32:32.546-08:002017-01-12T20:32:32.546-08:001. Oh come on. In 5e you add an ability modifier a...1. Oh come on. In 5e you add an ability modifier and a universal proficiency bonus. It ain't that hard :)<br /><br />2. Well, there are basically three types of skills:<br /><br />* skills that let you do something<br />* skills that represent what your character knows<br />* skills that help a player gather information<br /><br />ACTION SKILLS<br />Acrobatics<br />Animal Handling<br />Athletics<br />Deception<br />Intimidation<br />Performance<br />Persuasion<br />Sleight of Hand<br />Stealth<br />Survival<br /><br />KNOWLEDGE SKILLS<br />Arcana<br />History<br />Medicine<br />Nature<br />Religion<br /><br />INFO GATHERING SKILLS<br />Insight<br />Investigation<br />Perception<br /><br />Rarely do I hear complaints about action skills as they are very straight forward. Which makes sense, as these skills are dependent completely on the player's character abilities, i.e. the player just tells the character to do something and hopes they pull it off.<br /><br />Charisma based action skills are a little more fuzzy as it does involve player abilities as they need to actually talk.<br /><br />And it makes sense that you don't have problems with the Knowledge skills as they represent character expertise. These determine what areas a player will be able to make a more informed decision.<br /><br />It is the information gathering skills where the problems arise as many of us DMs want our players to actively seek the information out rather than just roll a die. The SEEKING is part of the fun.<br /><br />I think the best solution is to limit these skills to discovering information that can not be role-played.<br /><br />-<br /><br />Perception is the counter for stealth. Does the PC see the orc trying hiding behind the bush? If a giant spider is on the ceiling of a chamber and a player says he looks up at the ceiling.. he should automatically see the spider - no perception check is necessary. Its when the players are busy with something else that it matters.<br /><br />Insight is the counter for charisma skills. Do you notice something awry with the King's speech? Most DMs aren't really good actors and wont be able to put subtle clues into their dialogue that could alert clever players there is some subterfuge.<br /><br />Investigation is used to determine if something is as it seems. Is this a real ruby or a fake one? Should only be involved in tasks that are at least a little time consuming. It shouldn't be used as a generic search skill that just gives players clues.<br /><br />-<br /><br />The only reason to differentiate these three skills from each other, and not just lump them together as a generalized Perception skill is simply to allow players to specialize in particular types of information gathering.<br /><br />Else.. every party would just have 'that guy' that dumps everything into perception and acts as the parties Sherlock Holmes.morikahnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03204033035155948564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-12907372794367624172017-01-12T19:48:43.596-08:002017-01-12T19:48:43.596-08:00One way I have used the Investigate skill is when ...One way I have used the Investigate skill is when the characters are trying to search through a large amount of in-game information for some clue or advantage *under time pressure.* <br />So they can roll to skim the occult tome to find the one helpful passage to unsummon the demonic assassin before it claims its target, scan through all the computer files to find the one with the important file before the raptors break through the glass wall, etc. It seems most useful to me if success grants an advantage, failure isn't a roadblock, the information isn't so cool you want to just give it to anyone who looks, and you don't want to waste too much time simulating the search experience. Which sounds really restrictive but in play my players who are trained in investigate have seemed happy/had fun when it turns up a cookie.<br /><br />I'm sure you could handle this sort of niche action as either as an ability check, X in 6 per turn, 'careful examination' as you describe on a case by case basis too. curiouspandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13410559749190937664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-12895738897114144222017-01-12T06:33:42.462-08:002017-01-12T06:33:42.462-08:001.True but it's annoying to recalculate the sk...1.True but it's annoying to recalculate the skill bonuses based on new ability scores<br /><br />2. That is not a good use of the skill as far as I'm concerned because it might as well be perception.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-52425468190704844152017-01-12T06:23:39.793-08:002017-01-12T06:23:39.793-08:001) Skills are not technically tied to a specific a...1) Skills are not technically tied to a specific ability score. They generally are ASSOCIATED with a certain ability score, but as described on page 175 in the 5e PHB, under Variant: Skills with Different Ability Scores, the DM can ask for a skill to be used in combination with a non-standard ability score.<br /><br />This means a DM can rule that a nimble rogue can use his Dexterity modifier with Athletics when climbing - or that a barbarian can flex his massive muscles and use his Strength modifier with Intimidation.<br /><br />This may address the issues you have with certain charisma skills or rogues climbing.<br /><br />(As a side note: I just allow rogues to automatically succeed at climbing unless there is an exceptional situation. Then they may need to make a skill check).<br /><br /><br />2) Investigate has a mechanical purpose in 5e. It is used to overcome illusions such as Disguise Self or Silent Image.<br /><br />Perhaps instead of Investigate being used to shortcut roleplaying and exploration, it could used to determine if something IS as the the DM described it.<br /><br />* Determining if someone is wearing a disguise (without just assaulting them and trying to pull their 'wig' off).<br />* If an art piece is a fake<br />* If something has been polymorphed (it's rarely perfect).<br /><br />I don't see how a player could roleplay such things as those actions rely on their character's senses, not their own.<br /><br />And obviously, all the skills are great to use as shortcuts when you just want to summarize a situation quickly. <br /><br />Roleplaying a wizard searching a library for a certain scroll is boring - better to just say the character is busy for the next 4 hours and will need to make one or more Investigation checks to determine the results.morikahnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03204033035155948564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-17469567801865385392017-01-10T17:33:51.004-08:002017-01-10T17:33:51.004-08:00John--
who are you talking to and what about?
Who ...John--<br />who are you talking to and what about?<br />Who are these "uncreative players?"Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-58308440122939478482017-01-10T17:15:35.013-08:002017-01-10T17:15:35.013-08:00Is an uncreative player necessarily someone whom t...Is an uncreative player necessarily someone whom the rules should cater to? I mean, I understand the idea to cater to everyone equally, but in other games I play we don't usually modify the rules for everybody simply because someone's bad at the game.<br /><br />Similarly, the player who justifies everything is surely easily defeated by an impartial DM?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07090296806321882601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-57076055740474615642017-01-07T06:23:33.052-08:002017-01-07T06:23:33.052-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Patrick Mallahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04906639025904535922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-71375932582673771352017-01-07T06:12:29.804-08:002017-01-07T06:12:29.804-08:00We are playing a heavily modded version of True20 ...We are playing a heavily modded version of True20 so stunning is common, but you are right; every gameplay choice made is a trade-off.<br /><br />So we lose on complexity (skills for ability checks) but that's fine. It's similar to the trade-off between old-school and "modern" skills as you say in the original blog post. Old-school skills out of the box aren't really any more complex than "Thieves can climb sheer walls. Fighters can too, if they have tools and stuff. Both will eventually get over the wall as an obstacle; it doesn't really matter until the wraiths start fly-by attacks. When they do, I can either ask for climb checks, or for Str checks, or maybe let the thief use Dex because he should be better..." which brings us back to your original post.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09350804188996303551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-30690780787447508822017-01-06T20:17:49.026-08:002017-01-06T20:17:49.026-08:00I used this same thing during the playtest and had...I used this same thing during the playtest and had mixed results. <br /><br />It allowed for some fantastic concepting ("chefsassin", "seedy artifact dealer", "Didn't think that one through" "Feywild Arms Merchant" "known far and wide as the Slayer of Krom the Giant, Doom Drummer, and of course two players independently chose Princess)<br /><br />Players that weren't that creative had a really hard time with it. We had a player that was "Trained by the retired Sword Master" and just didn't have the ability to understand what that might mean. But athletics, and spending a second wind, they got. <br /><br />We reviewed it later when 5e Actually launched and jumped over to skills, mainly because the more experienced players felt that concepts as skills were a little too wiggly and thus OP. <br /><br />Actually making a skill that fits the class too much was broken. We had a ranger who took "underhunter" and spent a lot of time explaining how that skill pretty much applied to every possible action they could take as a ranger. Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10611141187579454281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-76394924439545061062017-01-06T16:43:01.517-08:002017-01-06T16:43:01.517-08:00That's fine if you're playing Vampire or a...That's fine if you're playing Vampire or a Mafia game, but it disables the following situation:<br /><br />There is a difficult situation--there are several possible courses of action, each with upsides and downsides, the player must decide which kind of action (die roll) to gamble on, with all the attendant cost-benefit analysis.<br /><br />It also makes it impossible for a climbing-while-fighting fight to be any different in any meaningful of dangerous-feeling way than a regular fight until someone is stunned. In which case stunning becomes the optimal tactic and everyone just goes for that.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-88809200967820713832017-01-06T16:39:46.379-08:002017-01-06T16:39:46.379-08:00yes--though i think there's something to be sa...yes--though i think there's something to be said for making sure players don't choose descriptors that overlap their class and race skills, which can be easy to accidentally do and so cheat yourself out of a bonus accidentally.<br /><br />Plus some players--esp new ones-- just hate coming up with those descriptorsZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-16227787145150006162017-01-06T11:12:04.776-08:002017-01-06T11:12:04.776-08:00If you think about it, most encounters go one of t...If you think about it, most encounters go one of two ways: either they are better than you (monkeys chasing dwarves in the jungle) or you are better than them (rare, PCs generally don't have special modes of movement). In fringe cases you can ask for ability checks.<br /><br />In cool fights while climbing and so on, everyone can climb and fight (because you are an adventurer! You do this shit for a living!) but if you are stunned/paralyzed/unconscious then, again, no skill check required (and for fringe cases I ask for a Str check, for example).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09350804188996303551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-26794891414594682022017-01-06T10:09:06.079-08:002017-01-06T10:09:06.079-08:00Ultimately having a skill or tool proficiency is j...Ultimately having a skill or tool proficiency is just determining if you get that +2 (at first level) or not. One method I've seen and liked but am not currently using is for the player to make a small list of character description items that could potentially impact their ability checks. <br />"Studied magic under the great Carlota the Magistrix."<br />"Regularly hunts boars through the Northern Forest."<br />"Hired muscle for Crow the Underlord."<br /><br />Then on an intelligence check you get the +2 to know about magic that Carlota might have taught you, to know anything about the northern forest, and to appraise the sort of items that passed through Crow's black market.<br /><br />Players will tend to stretch these to their fullest but I don't see the point in stopping them unless they're handing you a line of total BS.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-38547324899008314642017-01-05T16:18:27.506-08:002017-01-05T16:18:27.506-08:00Because these two interpretations of "charism...Because these two interpretations of "charisma" are not necessarily linked irl. Being good at one thing irl does not suggest you are good at the other irl. If you build a world that way it conflates two different ability sets.<br /><br />That's why.<br /><br />There are arguments that it's _practically_ useful as game design, but no reason it's good from a simulatory pov.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-28600570197378771462017-01-05T16:12:43.415-08:002017-01-05T16:12:43.415-08:00Why split it? I think that's the whole idea to...Why split it? I think that's the whole idea to having the skills in the first place. Charisma is just a measure of how effective you are at social interactions.<br />Adamantyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14962009901412877763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-81454779224382315822017-01-05T15:27:30.111-08:002017-01-05T15:27:30.111-08:00Hmm. That is a distinction that might be worth pr...Hmm. That is a distinction that might be worth preserving. It's almost like there's a need for two types of CHA that are actually opposites rather than different manifestations of the same trait.<br /><br />Charisma is a necessarily weird stat sometimes.Jonathan Linnemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04711517194240426383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-40005149014017629662017-01-05T11:58:25.427-08:002017-01-05T11:58:25.427-08:00well beauty and cultish persuasiveness are differe...well beauty and cultish persuasiveness are different _causes_ whereas bouncing and seducing are different effectsZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.com