tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post5905177205404586412..comments2024-03-28T22:00:35.840-07:00Comments on Playing D&D With Porn Stars: Thirteen Ways Of Looking At The Terrible Thing You Just MadeZak Sabbathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-29069726611273105702015-03-10T15:00:12.113-07:002015-03-10T15:00:12.113-07:00I have never met or had extensive conversations wi...I have never met or had extensive conversations with either of you so I don't know.<br /><br />If you turn out to be not a moron and still like it, then I will have to revise my opinion.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-19681132788340616102015-03-10T14:56:57.601-07:002015-03-10T14:56:57.601-07:00Just checking to make sure I understand a point: I...Just checking to make sure I understand a point: I think Bliss Stage is a great game. Am I, therefore, a moron?<br /><br />Also pretty sure Ron Edwards likes it, too, since I've played it with him. Is he a moron?Oberon the Foolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831258730931027927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-77811831108595522732015-03-10T04:35:23.476-07:002015-03-10T04:35:23.476-07:00I've got a Christian RPG at home, "The Wa...I've got a Christian RPG at home, "The Way". It's European, wasn't part of any satanic panic, but does bring in morality lessons like "why did the party abandon the guy? Is it right or wrong to abandon people? Discuss!" It's super railroady and pretty bad.<br />It has pretty weird politics also. It seems to want to counter the image of "Jesus as proto-anarchocommunist" which I think is a shame.<br />I'd say the game is 10, "The Thing You Just Don't Like" for me, more for the railroad than anything else.<br /><br />To clarify, the book (The Way that is, don't know about Dragon Raid) doesn't have any overt Christian imagery in it, way less than say Narnia. US 80:s Christians would not accept it, it has arcane magic and stuff.<br />It's more about presenting situations and opening up the floor for discussing what's the right or wrong way to handle such situations. In that it railroads an outcome but then allows you to "talk if that felt right or wrong". It was published for a church and says it was made for religious education.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-38186671153023234732015-03-05T10:31:56.111-08:002015-03-05T10:31:56.111-08:00"...he wrote may be sexist, offensive, disagr..."...he wrote may be sexist, offensive, disagreeable or whatever but I do not think it defines all of his work."<br /><br />I didn't say it "defines all of his work". I said if people say "Cerebus is bad" then the fact that it provides conclusive evidence he is (as you said) sexist is what makes them say that sentence.<br /><br />What blog entry are you reading?Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-28962209058610728262015-03-05T10:11:07.254-08:002015-03-05T10:11:07.254-08:00Sorry.
I am struggling with how anyone could thin...Sorry.<br /><br />I am struggling with how anyone could think Cerebus is longhand for bad in any way shape or form. I am against the inclusion of Cerebus on this list. <br /><br />Cerebus is great--really great. <br /><br />You wrote "loooooong text pieces in the end telling you in the first person that he's sexist." to which I tried to respond that these 'long text pieces" were actually in the middle of the series not the end. I think issues 185 & 186 say much more than "I am sexist", but that is not really important. The important thing is that what he writes is not 'shorthand for bad' & two issues does not prove once and for all that Sim is a douche--what he wrote may be sexist, offensive, disagreeable or whatever but I do not think it defines all of his work. What he wrote before issue 185 is definitely not bad. Most of what he wrote after 186 is not bad--Cerebus continued to be strong until the end, Judenhass is amazing, glamourpuss was interesting, etc.<br /><br />Of course, none of this really addresses what you wrote...how about, I think that if you are looking for an example of a thing which reveals the author Is a douche you could do a lot better than Dave Sim...<br />David Given Schwarmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09106539582570204636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-15152544428842278682015-03-04T11:27:00.651-08:002015-03-04T11:27:00.651-08:00Your comment doesn't really make sense.
The f...Your comment doesn't really make sense.<br /><br />The first 2 paragraphs are unrelated to anything I said, the 3rd paragraph seems to argue that one thing people say when they mean "bad" isn't a "cautionary tale" when I made no such claim.<br /><br />And whether a person "dismisses" cerebus because people use the word bad (or should or should not) is no part of what I wrote.<br /><br />The 4th paragraph isn't about something people mean when they use the word "Bad" it's an example of the aesthetic of a work changing over time which can lead to it being called bad (because 10) or good or neither..Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-39444007185164327912015-03-04T08:47:00.135-08:002015-03-04T08:47:00.135-08:00"In case you had any doubt, Dave Sim's co..."In case you had any doubt, Dave Sim's comics had<br />loooooong text pieces in the end telling you in the<br />first person that he's sexist."<br /><br />I would argue that 185/6 was actually more in the middle of a 300 issue mini series. Three HUNDRED ISSUE MINI SERIES! The essays that preceded this were the foundation of Artists Rights & Self Publishing which created the Comic Age we are currently enjoying. The essays near the end are very "Religious" [Capital R] in nature, in my opinion.<br /><br />The "Dave Sim is a Sexist" and the subsequent drama is less a cautionary tale around artistic douchery and more about dismissing an artist contributions completely because they express unpopular opinions, a major theme of the 20th century--see Pound, See Fela Kuti, See Picasso, etc...<br /><br />More to the point, your example is spot on with the Cerebus Syndrome--already a class of Bad in which something initially intended to be "comic" gradually becomes more and more serious until it is completely unmoored, absurd, and incomprehensible. This happens with most RPG jokes...David Given Schwarmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09106539582570204636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-30421720100718328042015-03-04T07:49:36.492-08:002015-03-04T07:49:36.492-08:00Fuck, this felt really good to read. Detailed typo...Fuck, this felt really good to read. Detailed typology of Ways To Mess Up really clunked something into place in my brain. Quick, someone make an infographic with lots of fonts!Jameelahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16348826052714309982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-61841935427685370812015-03-02T20:34:10.244-08:002015-03-02T20:34:10.244-08:00Sure either way I can see it.
It's more about...Sure either way I can see it.<br /><br />It's more about clarifying kinds of argument than trying to complain about DragonRaid.<br /><br />It seems like you understood what I was trying to sayZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-89403590733889566422015-03-02T20:23:26.034-08:002015-03-02T20:23:26.034-08:00Though, on the other hand, I can see that some peo...Though, on the other hand, I can see that some people make the argument that the game does make the world a worse place by supporting the false idea that other games are anti-Christian, so there's that, too.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-68366201271415395382015-03-02T20:20:19.755-08:002015-03-02T20:20:19.755-08:00I've read and played DragonRaid (and I am far ...I've read and played DragonRaid (and I am far from being any sort of Christian). I recall that the author, in his design notes, was not opposed to D&D (in fact liked it quite a lot), but did want to create a similar game that wouldn't trigger the touchy parents of his Sunday School students, and making it have Bible Learning elements seemed to be a good way to do that. I think that it's more Left-Handed Scissors, but I'm sure that someone else could make a case for whatever. For what it's worth, I didn't have a whole lot of fun, mainly due to the requirement to use Bible verses to cast spells… er, ask for LightRaider miracles.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-82163230857791562172015-03-02T17:43:35.509-08:002015-03-02T17:43:35.509-08:00Chill. Not important.Chill. Not important.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-74372340766354489732015-03-02T17:00:12.827-08:002015-03-02T17:00:12.827-08:00But no one really cares and language is fluid. Com...But no one really cares and language is fluid. Common vernacular outweighs etymology. Saying the word bad is oppressive or ill advised for usage, as I assume you mean since you got up with the sjw tag, is trite in this day and age.SavageCheerleaderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00832023627102128364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-80752746763884010222015-03-02T16:57:58.283-08:002015-03-02T16:57:58.283-08:00Same. Was totally expecting that wild gem.Same. Was totally expecting that wild gem.SavageCheerleaderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00832023627102128364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-9424369916281566052015-03-02T16:57:02.551-08:002015-03-02T16:57:02.551-08:00That was comedy gold. You played the long game to ...That was comedy gold. You played the long game to get in a jab at Fred Hicks; well done young man.SavageCheerleaderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00832023627102128364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-76414143536576530772015-03-02T16:08:33.281-08:002015-03-02T16:08:33.281-08:00Even if the person you are talking to is arguing f...Even if the person you are talking to is arguing from emotion and using the argument as a post-hoc rationalization--somewhere else in the world there's someone who isn't and who actually believes that thing.<br /><br />So you assume good faith and address the argument. It's worth dealing with even if the interlocutor who represents it isn't.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-62480675139272507002015-03-02T16:02:41.032-08:002015-03-02T16:02:41.032-08:00Fair enough. I would only add that *sometimes* poi...Fair enough. I would only add that *sometimes* pointing out that the argument is clearly a post hoc rationalization for the emotional reaction is a legit move in that game. I agree that this shouldn't be the first resort and that the initial assumption should be that the surface argument is being made in good faith.Jeff Heikkinenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13856981023882223505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-63242233547904486152015-03-02T15:49:11.920-08:002015-03-02T15:49:11.920-08:00even if they are reacting emotionally, i am addres...even if they are reacting emotionally, i am addressing<br /><br />_the arguments people make_ not _what's in their head_<br /><br />..so every "you took my toy away" whiner I've met ALSO has some argument which (though it may be a lie) I must take in good faith about why the new thing (absent its newness) is bad.<br /><br />I am addressing these arguments.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-34424210230543531782015-03-02T15:45:57.603-08:002015-03-02T15:45:57.603-08:00Okay, now we're on the same page I think, and ...Okay, now we're on the same page I think, and onto something reasonable people can disagree on.<br /><br />I don't think the qualities they respond poorly to need go beyond "it's not the thing I'm used to". (Though sometimes they do.) I like to think I'm somewhat an exception to this and I get the impression you are too, but *most* or at least *many* people are creatures of habit and don't respond well to having their toys taken away. Even if they haven't really been taken away, merely put somewhere a tiny bit harder to reach.Jeff Heikkinenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13856981023882223505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-46282115150944269242015-03-02T15:25:33.998-08:002015-03-02T15:25:33.998-08:00Ok.
I think that 14th thing is not it's own t...Ok.<br /><br />I think that 14th thing is not it's own thing simply because it unless there were some other source of dissatisfaction then nobody would just call that "bad".<br /><br />I think replacement makes people mad--but because the replacing thing has qualities they respond poorly to.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-14572243413725576402015-03-02T15:17:12.264-08:002015-03-02T15:17:12.264-08:00And I'm not saying that's false. I'm s...And I'm not saying that's false. I'm saying two other things: (1) that the example used to illustrate this true thing is potentially misleading, and (2) that there's this other reasonably interesting thing you could also add to your list.Jeff Heikkinenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13856981023882223505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-67465365110239511452015-03-02T15:09:32.458-08:002015-03-02T15:09:32.458-08:00@Jeff
Again: you're being sidetracked by the ...@Jeff<br /><br />Again: you're being sidetracked by the analogy and not engaging what I wrote:<br /><br />When<br /><br />Some<br /><br />People<br /><br />say "bad" what they mean is a thing is commercially underperforming.<br /><br />That is the sum total of what I said there.<br /><br />You're saying another thing unrelated to that thing inspired by the associations you have with the words "new coke" and perhaps even by the realities of New CokeZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-63271425402710813392015-03-02T15:06:56.627-08:002015-03-02T15:06:56.627-08:00Harder than it needed to be, then (especially if y...Harder than it needed to be, then (especially if you wanted to do it legally). At one point 3.5 Player's Handbooks were like a hundred bucks on eBay.<br /><br />I think what I said about new coke and 4E is pretty close to objectively true. It's certainly not just my idiosyncratic idea, at any rate. The problem with New Coke in particular wasn't commercial failure, it was PR backlash. Sales were at worst mildly disappointing and wouldn't have caused the turnaround to Coke Classic by themselves, or at least not as fast. At the very least that makes New Coke a misleading example for the thing you're trying to illustrate.<br /><br />I also think what I said illustrates a 14th thing people can mean by "bad". It's sort of a variation on your 11 but there need not be a general trend, just a perception (accurate or not) that the "bad" thing has taken the place of the "good" thing. (And again, there's a good chance the solution is "more of the thing I like" rather than "less of the thing I don't like".)Jeff Heikkinenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13856981023882223505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-11620761759967886372015-03-02T14:21:06.228-08:002015-03-02T14:21:06.228-08:00You are talking about your ideas about New Coke an...You are talking about your ideas about New Coke and 4e, not about the idea that I put forward in #4 above.<br /><br />Also: it was NEVER hard to get "the beloved old product" in any RPG.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-33461642771189539602015-03-02T14:17:06.913-08:002015-03-02T14:17:06.913-08:00The problem with New Coke - and with the RPG thing...The problem with New Coke - and with the RPG thing it's most often compared to, which is 4th Edition D&D - isn't anything inherent to the product, true, but it's not about commercial performance either. The main thing people had against those two products is that they *replaced* beloved products that already existed in such a way that it was really hard to get the beloved old product anymore. And so people who wanted the old thing got angry and often took out their anger on the new thing, but they wouldn't have had a problem with the new thing if it existed *alongside* the old thing; their real problem was just that they couldn't get the old thing anymore.<br /><br />If 4E had just been called "Dungeons & Dragons Tactics" or something and marketed as a separate semi-compatible game *alongside* something actually recognizable as D&D, it would never have gotten anywhere near the backlash it did. Same with New Coke, with the added bonus that that's something Coca-Cola, unlike WotC, could actually feasibly have done.Jeff Heikkinenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13856981023882223505noreply@blogger.com