tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post2051159671434718972..comments2024-03-19T16:24:23.777-07:00Comments on Playing D&D With Porn Stars: The Tolkien ToolkitZak Sabbathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-11548760808343031892012-06-22T13:07:28.696-07:002012-06-22T13:07:28.696-07:00It's always sort of surprised me that talking ...It's always sort of surprised me that talking animals and fairies never made much inroad into gaming, I'd say if anything has the resonance, it's those two.Rachel Ghoulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765944479141792643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-72261133243704643532012-05-31T17:02:25.738-07:002012-05-31T17:02:25.738-07:00Not thinking you were lying, no, sorry. I was… sur...Not thinking you were lying, no, sorry. I was… surprised. And now I'm even more, actually.<br /><br />Maybe it's that we have different working definitions of what a "nerd" is? Because, if I'm talking to Hypothetical New Player, and I tell them "you can play a human, or elf or dwarf…" and they're like "OK", like they don't need any further explanation 'cause they already know what a elf or dwarf is supposed to be… then I'm like "Oh, you <i>are</i> a nerd/geek after all! I didn't know. Welcome home, then."<br />Because this whole affection for romantic-medieval images and tolkien-esque half-human folks… I think it's a distinguishing feature of the "nerdosphere", as you called it. That anybody who "gets it" is already part of the club - they're not "fresh blood". While mainstream human beings, out there, don't have knightly armors and wizard hats as the default costuming for their imagination.<br />And then, of course, I may be wrong.<br /><br />Or maybe it's just a language/national/cultural thing, you know… Maybe words like "elf" or "dwarf" inspire a much more D&D-like image to the average English-speaking American person than the equivalent Italian words would to the average Italian (I expect somebody not already "in the know", here, to picture "elves" as Santa's little helpers or maybe pixies, "dwarfs" as ordinary midgets or characters from Disney's Snow-white).<br /><br />Can you see where I was coming from?<br /><br />But the interesting part, really, is your last paragraph, with which I agree. I agree that's a barrier to entry! And one we need to get rid of!<br />What doesn't resonate with my own experience is just that "cliches about knights and fantasy and elves" can get people past that. Which is what prompted my reaction. But obviously we've had very different experiences, which is great!Rafuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00333825875342896253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-67396339220700575812012-05-29T07:51:27.148-07:002012-05-29T07:51:27.148-07:00Sorry. I didn't see this bit:
What PC races b...Sorry. I didn't see this bit:<br /><br />What PC races besides the "Tolkien Four" have enough broad folk or mythic resonance to be accessible and quickly grasped by new players not deep in the nerdosphere?<br /><br />Without this bit, it sounds like you're implying that dwarfs, elves and halflings are the <i>most</i> easily graspable set of possible non-humans.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-66488444548446617302012-05-28T23:51:47.373-07:002012-05-28T23:51:47.373-07:00Yes. None of that contradicts what I've said h...Yes. None of that contradicts what I've said here thoughZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-53078338939228432032012-05-28T23:48:43.310-07:002012-05-28T23:48:43.310-07:00Arguably there are sets of non-humans which are mo...Arguably there are sets of non-humans which are more familiar than elves, dwarves and hobbits/halflings (to the general public, not to gamers).<br /><br />Three obvious examples are talking animals, angels and devils, and vampires.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-36305702777394979792012-05-28T13:50:13.740-07:002012-05-28T13:50:13.740-07:00I've always thought the major races sort of em...I've always thought the major races sort of embodied medieval/renaissance memes about social class and bloodlines, which we today no longer subscribe to because they have been scientifically and historically discredited. I posit that Tolkien, too, used them in the same way, since he also knew the idea that it was impossible for some human men to be intrinsically "better" than others, he created the elves and the men of the west.*<br /><br />Elves represent the idea of nobility as heritage, the divine right of kings and the important of bloodline in determining role. Elves are naturally aristocratic, long-lived as a result, and difficult to corrupt, in both moral and physical senses. Dwarves are a middle class, of sorts, one of the few basic character types associated with skilled labor (mining, digging, fortifications, smithing, crafting) and who participate most strongly in the trade of gold, silver, and gemstones, which have no intrinsic worth but are a part of the middle-class wealth-creation chain. Orcs are like brutish savages, whether Picts or Vikings or Cossacks, who have their own system of values that is apart from, and often directly opposed to, that of the "civilized" world. Halflings are playable race of children, basically, at a time when actually having children in the game would have been a public relations nightmare. They are at home in the everyday world of humans/adults, but they are nevertheless apart from it, and their frequent association with thieving classes is more about their penchant for mischievousness than cynicism. Halflings are tough and honest and loyal in the way that heroic children are generally described. <br /><br />Obviously this isn't a perfect model (where do humans and gnomes fit in?) but I think it explains a lot of the appeal of the "generic D&D" race array, and also why more exotic races like Tiefling or Dragonborn, while popular, never have the same iconic status, because they are precisely so interesting that they cannot be fit, as a group, into the quasi-medieval worldview of D&D.<br /><br />*It's also worth noting that the way the races functioned in Tolkien's later works are vastly different than their characteristics in the Hobbit, which strikes me as being more in line with their antecedents in English folklore (dwarves are more magical, elves more spritely, etc). One thing that looks to be extremely disappointing about Jackson's Hobbit movies is that he's just retelling the Hobbit story in the LotR universe, which rips out all of its charm and most of what makes it interesting.Menace 3 Societyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10697437012473847456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-37817493349940847072012-05-24T20:29:11.214-07:002012-05-24T20:29:11.214-07:00@Rafu
I don't really understand what you'...@Rafu<br /><br />I don't really understand what you're saying.<br /><br />I have actual experience with players new to the game who have an idea of what an "elf" and a "dwarf" are but have not seen or read LOTR and don't play videogames etc. etc.<br /><br />With these actual players I have met in actual real life, doing the amount of work it would to (a sentence or two) two explain wererats or Lankhmar ghouls on their first day of play would be difficult.<br /><br />If you are assuming I am lying, let me know. If you are not, you'll have to accede my point .<br /><br />In case you still do not understand I will paste some stuff from an RPG.net thread where I explained it to someone else:<br />"<br />I think the "describe in a single sentence" thing is actually further than I'd go. For some of my players, to get buy-in, I need races I can describe in a single word or a single picture. <br /><br />That word or picture (if it's an archetypal one like "elf") sets off what amounts to paragraphs and paragraphs of associations in most people.<br /><br />If I say to most of my players "bladeling" I get a blank stare. So then I need more words.<br /><br />Let's assume I need just 8 words to describe a bladeling. That's a sentence, ok. But if that's one sentence for each of 3-6 races. So now we've got 3-6 sentences to juggle (plus then they have to pick a class and find out what "armor class" means and stuff) and so it begins to creep into an amount of buy-in I don't want to have to throw at a first-time player.<br /><br />Second PC? Go crazy, pick anything.<br /><br />I have at least one new player in like 70% of my game sessions--often people with no grounding in the source material-I like to get them up and running with a PC they understand in less than 15 minutes. I have found that the "fantasy archetype" thing works pretty well for this. None of them run around moaning that their character is boring.<br /><br />Not everyone has those kinds of players. I can only speak for myself.<br />"<br />Also and maybe more importantly--"elf" and "dwarf" and stuff don't just export ideas into peoples' heads, they make them seem organic and believable and part of a kind of world players can kinda get--they are exported with a fantasy context of mines and forests etc etc all without saying a word. A race may be described as short, spiky and warlike but if it doesn't come from a familiar english word then that context isn't there. The way a bladeling fits into the world is then only as good as whatever ilustration of a bladeling the player is shown.<br /><br />It's the same reason "goblin" is a far more useful and evocative word than "kobold". At least until you've got a few levels under your belt.<br /><br />For me, the biggest barrier to entry with RPGs is just people assume they have to know stuff and become steeped in lore in order to get started or be good (as opposed to more passive forms of entertainment where the learning of the lore is part of the fun of the narrative of the thing unfolding). Relying on cliches about knights and fantasy and elves gets them past this-they don't feel like they have to get it "right".<br />"Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-86505068718735703192012-05-24T19:26:45.529-07:002012-05-24T19:26:45.529-07:00"What PC races besides the "Tolkien Four..."What PC races besides the "Tolkien Four" have enough broad folk or mythic resonance to be accessible and quickly grasped by new players not deep in the nerdosphere?"<br /><br />…WHAT?!<br /><br />If you understand Elves & Dwarves at all, then you *are* in "the nerdosphere", period.<br /><br />If you really are *not* in it, then you need your Tolkien-esque Dwarves and your almost-Tolkien-but-not-quite Elves explained to you; in which case it would take the exact same time and brainpower to explain you Lankhmar Ghouls and Wererats, or WHATEVER.Rafuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00333825875342896253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-85161712537757163582012-05-21T09:31:38.405-07:002012-05-21T09:31:38.405-07:00I don't know about anyone else but at my table...I don't know about anyone else but at my table even a player who only knows Keebler elves who is shown a picture of a d&D elf PC and then I go "that's an elf" gets the picture. The word has weight with or without tolkien and the weight is there.<br /><br />I would say the same is true of everything you list except lizardman, catpeople and dragonfolk which--while perfectly resonant--need a line or two of cultural information for the total newbie. Like are these dragonfolk savage or noble, powerful and sophisticated or troglodytic? It's not too difficult to integrate them, but "mummy" or "leprechaun" has a lot more weight.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-82391058799968439252012-05-21T09:12:19.520-07:002012-05-21T09:12:19.520-07:00I'm kind of surprised to hear people talking a...I'm kind of surprised to hear people talking about the Tolkein races being well known. The films changed things but when I was a kid they were about as pop-culturey as Klingons or Vulcans - people recognised the names but anyone who had a mental image of them would know about tons of other fantasy stuff as well. Man-sized, wingless elves in particular always threw people.<br /><br />Genuinely pop-culture saturated, doesn't need an explanation races would be: fairies, golbins, trolls, centaurs, giants, demons and leprechauns. And I guess vampires, robots, mummies, ghosts. Lizardman/Cat-people/Ape-things/Dragonfolk are self explanatory enough to qualify too.<br /><br />Granted cultural differences and so on make it hard to judge anything universal, but the big four are associated with a single touchstone whereas the other things I mentioned are in hundreds of films and children's books and cereal boxes. They are iconic in a way that Gimli Dwarves aren't.<br /><br />At the very least, "troll" and "ogre" are much more well known than "orc" as words for big scary cannibals, and leprechaun/gnome is easier to grasp than hobbit/halfling.Verdancyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14062788738549767062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-83619782524487540552012-05-20T07:07:42.450-07:002012-05-20T07:07:42.450-07:00I think if you think your "authority" as...I think if you think your "authority" as a DM is affected by anything but the way you treat people and PCs then there's trouble.<br /><br />Communicating effectively with players is more than half of the job.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-59024204570292972132012-05-20T06:59:21.072-07:002012-05-20T06:59:21.072-07:00I think your group is probably not singular in tha...I think your group is probably <i>not</i> singular in that way. Indeed, there is a strong wave of <a href="http://frothingmug.blogspot.com/2012/03/delicate-balance.html" rel="nofollow">player entitlement</a> that seems to have undermined the authority of DMs in the present roleplaying market.<br /><br />I, for one, find the "I want to play what I want to play" attitude to be rude, destructive, and childish.JDG Perldeinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07632961831809544262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-26555194081791128352012-05-20T00:23:32.024-07:002012-05-20T00:23:32.024-07:00I think there's some tensions that inevitably ...I think there's some tensions that inevitably develop here on either side of the screen. I'm running a Fantasy Craft game right now that I pitched to my players as sort of Firefly meets The Alloy of Law with a smattering of Skyrim tropes. They latched on and seemed pretty excited, but no one was happy that I wanted to cut out some of FC's 12 races (despite the book being so keen about DMs being able to do just that and encouraging players to ask about it), even though they largely agreed that my decisions pushed the desired themes.<br /><br />I'm not entirely sure how to resolve that. There was too much separation between "I want to fit into that general sort of genre narrative and mess around, that sounds like fun" and "I want to play what I want to play." Maybe it's just my players instead of a general trend.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12523042289777858678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-74077786703949350172012-05-19T16:32:07.980-07:002012-05-19T16:32:07.980-07:00"Although I think it would be kinda interesti..."Although I think it would be kinda interesting to try to build a gameworld out of Anne of Green Gables, The Catcher in the Rye and The Name of the Rose (go Eco!). And/or The Little Prince."<br /><br />I can see things like huge old trees and doors drawn out of chalk leading to various "dungeons" (a la Pan's Labyrinth) - and of course, you could always try and nab a shooting star to go to a very different locale.NaldoDrinanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05925017763253597522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-59882882285586065272012-05-19T14:31:50.324-07:002012-05-19T14:31:50.324-07:00Another vote for "humans, humans, humans"...Another vote for "humans, humans, humans", with a side of humans. (No Pepsi, humans.) _Iron Heroes_ among others had a list of traits to customize its all-human PCs, based on place of birth, physique, and mental talents. The most exotic was Shadow Born, a whiff of infernal ancestry, which manifested as magical aptitude, precognition, or an uncanny and intimidating demeanor. Others included Bewitching (as in beauty), Short, and Nondescript (useful for hiding in crowds).<br /><br />Not all of IH's list are winners, but the same principle could apply to creating characters or entire nations. A rules appendix might demonstrate how to build the Tolkien races, Lizard People, Deep One hybrids, and another exotic species using said trait system (possibly expanded).<br /><br />I for one would prefer to play a dwarf (Tyrion Lannister) than a Dwarf (Gimli son of Gloin), or a Melnibonean-with-the-serial-numbers-filed-off than an Elf. Then again, I'd also like to choose how magic works (if at all) and not have assumptions about magic items and spells/powers embedded in the "math" and creature descriptions, but that's another discussion.semiprometheushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15207709959053404464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-47910221589257163222012-05-19T14:05:29.150-07:002012-05-19T14:05:29.150-07:00I didn't know, until I watched the making-of f...I didn't know, until I watched the making-of features on the LotR DVDs, that Tolkien's big book was the most printed book in English after the Bible (or among the top few according to the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books" rel="nofollow">Fount of Knowledge</a>. That explains a whole lot. Probably nothing has the same cultural reach except for Star Wars.<br /><br />So my vote for potentially successful and recognisable fantasy races would be Wookiees, Jawas and Droids. And whatever they had in the prequels, I kinda burned that part out of my brain.<br />Or maybe Angels, Devils and possessed pigs? Honestly, I don't remember my Bible well enough to say if there were demi-humans in there.<br /><br />Looking down the rest of the top selling list, the standout surprise (for me) and other possible ray of sunshine is H. Rider Haggard's <em>She</em>. Although I think it would be kinda interesting to try to build a gameworld out of Anne of Green Gables, The Catcher in the Rye and The Name of the Rose (go Eco!). And/or The Little Prince.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-786098642941170272012-05-19T12:42:40.986-07:002012-05-19T12:42:40.986-07:00At the risk of driving this whole conversation off...At the risk of driving this whole conversation off a cliff with derailments...<br /><br />I enjoy competitive NPC parties. They lend a sense of danger to any setting, in that they are probably as well outfitted (or better) as you are, and they're definitely clever.<br /><br />I treat NPC adventuring parties in the 10th Age as something like a cross between rockstar celebrities, tombrobbers, and angry thugs. There are enough that you could find another party of adventurers (or three) in any major city, but there aren't so many of them that they band together and form organizations.<br /><br />And let us not forget that high level characters will found strongholds! There are a number of mercenary companies in the 10th Age also that are simple adventuring companies (with or without charters depending on the region) that are assumed to have reached levels 9-10 and begun attracting large numbers of followers.<br /><br />I suppose to address the frequency issue, anyone can be an adventurer: there are a fairly large number of first or second level adventurers in the world. However, not anyone can be a <i>successful</i> adventurer, and dying before level 3 is hideously common. Thus, high level parties are as rare as A-list actors and everyone knows their names.<br /><br />Just the same, folks are likely to look down their nose at adventurers, who are essentially a filthy underclass of thieves and brigands given only the faintest trappings of civilization. That is, until they come back from some tomb with more wealth than the local king and begin spreading the coin around.JDG Perldeinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07632961831809544262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-48646617164983180652012-05-19T12:36:54.778-07:002012-05-19T12:36:54.778-07:00I would prefer settings where adventurers are actu...I would prefer settings where adventurers are actually very rare - yes, there might be NPCs doing the same sort of thing, but not a whole lot, and certainly not enough that there's an Adventurer's Guild in any town.<br /><br />Remember, the question isn't just "why don't NPCs do this as well?" but also "Why don't we just get one of these NPCs to do it?" and "Why didn't any of those NPCs do it already?" Answer: adventuring is an insanely dangerous activity partaken of by people whose ambitions or ideals outweigh their sense of self-preservation, and who don't have a better way to get the job done.Arthurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082868759668427041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-59996829242375805732012-05-19T12:25:43.345-07:002012-05-19T12:25:43.345-07:00Unless there's an established class of adventu...Unless there's an established class of adventurers, in which case they are not simply outsiders but members of an alternately (or perhaps <i>both at the same time</i>) celebrated or reviled group.<br /><br />I prefer adventurers to exist as a force in the setting; if the PCs are doing it, why shouldn't the NPCs as well? Thinking through decisions of this nature is what made the earlier iterations (pre-Wizzads) so well-designed in terms of worldcraft. Every element was explored to its full extent: if there are adventurers, how would they change society?<br /><br />I think I'm starting to get dangerously off topic.JDG Perldeinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07632961831809544262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-77378939678817804572012-05-19T12:20:15.467-07:002012-05-19T12:20:15.467-07:00Human beings, human beings, human beings and human...Human beings, human beings, human beings and human beings.<br /><br />For serious, I don't see why "PC races" is a must-have thing in a fantasy RPG - but if I were going to run a fantasy RPG with multiple PC races, I'd go with the classics - elves, dwarves, orcs, maybe hobbitses and gnomes if I felt there was anything at all interesting I could do with them - because if you're going to go with that sort of fantasy you might as well go full archetypal. (Oh, and no half-anythings because either you want to be a human or you want to be an elf and half-elf offers nothing except the experience of being an outsider, which every PC in that sort of very archetypal D&D fantasy game should be undergoing anyway.)Arthurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082868759668427041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-79410277213443633902012-05-19T12:06:44.421-07:002012-05-19T12:06:44.421-07:00I think when drift is really powerful it also invo...I think when drift is really powerful it also involves how the archetypes look and act to some degree.<br /><br />It's important to kinda give the whole construct a good shove once in a while.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-73791927805372780682012-05-19T11:59:51.457-07:002012-05-19T11:59:51.457-07:00I think there is definitely a great resonance with...I think there is definitely a great resonance with the "classical fantasy" races; not all the elements of classical fantasy come from Tolkien, but a good deal of them do.<br /><br />Yet, every single D&D setting has their own details in the variation on those tropes and each setting delves into the tropes from a different angle.<br /><br />Just to name three examples: Birthright elves are much more similar to the Sidhe in being mysterious and reclusive magicfolk that do not undertstand man. Forgotten Realms elves are very close to Tolkiens but they've been divided into a number of subgroups that give them flavor. My own elves in the <a href="http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/the-10th-age/wikis/the-book-of-elves" rel="nofollow">10th Age</a> tread a line somewhere between the two.<br /><br />Just because they share physical features with elves the world over doesn't make every iteration of elves the same; the same goes for dwarves, halflings, and all the other races of "standard" fantasy. Re-imagining them can be interesting, but throwing them out jettisons an entire network of meanings that we all know at least something about. Elves are mysterious, dwarves are withdrawn, halflings farmfolk... we share this inherently. Breaking down those assumptions or explaining them (Elves are mysterious <i>because</i>, dwarves are clannish and secretive <i>because</i>, etc.) is enough uniqueness for me to be happy.JDG Perldeinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07632961831809544262noreply@blogger.com