tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post8936101083195051795..comments2024-03-19T16:24:23.777-07:00Comments on Playing D&D With Porn Stars: Disagree-a-thon: BardsZak Sabbathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-59595923641286249612021-10-22T08:35:15.875-07:002021-10-22T08:35:15.875-07:00Yeah, I meant the troll.
He cracked the stone to r...Yeah, I meant the troll.<br />He cracked the stone to reveal the sun right?<br />And in some ways the ventriloquism was a spell, not the use of it to gain time.<br />So the only non low&magic would be the leaping fire and the lightning I guess.Becami Cusackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07217505009455196473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-50449975367610497262021-10-22T04:40:31.376-07:002021-10-22T04:40:31.376-07:00@zak
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil%C3%AD
In ...@zak<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil%C3%AD<br /><br />In short, there were a part of the pre-Christian druidic hierarchy in Ireland, with similar roles in proto-celtic and proto-european cultures dating back to the bronze age. They were seen and treated as distinct from warriors, thieves (horse/cattle rustlers), druids/priests, and other magic-using types for their use of memory, influence, and interpretation of law.<br /><br />In gaming terms, they are specialists in reaction/loyalty roles the way a fighter is a specialist in attack. They buff and protect parties socially just by their presence (it was considered bad form to refuse to host a Fili/Bard) and magically vs "vocal/musical" influence. Built properly (like 1e AD&D) and played properly (like in the tales of old) they can change the nature of any campaign or dungeon crawl. It is a niche the other classes can fit but not as well.<br /><br />I hope this helps.p1r8z0rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02232264043854801391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-24471413487335208752021-10-21T10:23:09.797-07:002021-10-21T10:23:09.797-07:00@CJGeringer
Nah, that's not what I mean by &q...@CJGeringer<br /><br />Nah, that's not what I mean by "culture" here--what I mean is that Mr Charming Sage is a lot less useful outside their own culture.<br /><br />Like: in a mindflayer city or in a giant spider's mouth.<br /><br />Thief, Wizard and Fighter skills are still useful there. Aside from mayyybe spouting some lore ("The mind-flayer is said to be vulnerable to rusted weapons!"--which will get old fast, there's not much a culture and charm guy can do down thereZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-39408551146768524092021-10-21T10:12:33.023-07:002021-10-21T10:12:33.023-07:00
@Zak,
That is partially the point of my origina...<br />@Zak, <br /><br />That is partially the point of my original comment. <br /><br />A bard does not have to be any more limited than a fighter or thief, if a system has a limited bard that is a design problem of the system, not inherent in the Bard concept.<br /><br />As for being outside of a familiar culture, that is highly dependent on your own cultural background. for example, to me bards were more familiar as a concept than paladins (a concept I was only introduced to after I started playing RPGs). But I understand that is not true for most RPG players<br />CJGeringerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10367654304370593518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-56960756589333820382021-10-21T07:03:32.811-07:002021-10-21T07:03:32.811-07:00@cjgeringer
sorry typo at the end: what I meant t...@cjgeringer<br /><br />sorry typo at the end: what I meant to say was the reasons I give why I don’t think it works that well in games still apply: it’s a limited class outside of a familiar culture.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-29052559590430962892021-10-21T07:02:22.582-07:002021-10-21T07:02:22.582-07:00@cjgeringer
well however you interpreted that #4 ...@cjgeringer<br /><br />well however you interpreted that #4 — what you just wrote is exactly what I meant to say. The reasons I gave why it apply. seem to work very well to me still apply.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-72409831263734361962021-10-21T06:59:48.284-07:002021-10-21T06:59:48.284-07:00I disagree, that it does.
Your #4 Talks about the...I disagree, that it does.<br /><br />Your #4 Talks about the bard as the “charisma-wizard“ and mention the other stuff as a complement to that , While my use doen´t even have magic as an aspect most of the time.<br /><br /> I am not talking simply about charisma, I am talking about charisma, and cunning, and social manipulation, and perspicacy, rumor-mongering, Knowledge, and leaning into customs, and using known stories as precedents in legal disputes.<br /><br /><br />CJGeringerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10367654304370593518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-1227245242268849182021-10-21T03:35:56.396-07:002021-10-21T03:35:56.396-07:00@p1r8z0r
I don't know what a fili is.@p1r8z0r <br /><br />I don't know what a fili is.<br /><br />Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-66327564530252218792021-10-21T03:32:04.646-07:002021-10-21T03:32:04.646-07:00@zak: then I can call the old 1e AD&D Bard a F...@zak: then I can call the old 1e AD&D Bard a Fili and be done with it, because that's really what they are. Funny argument: someone along the way in human history decided to equate fili = bard = minstrel, which was incorrect. So why not reclaim it? Humans do have the power to utilize language as well as use it: hence poetry. I'll stick with mythical bards because they do fill a role-playing niche: social combat (charm music/suggestion), lore, spying, and party buff/protection - all of it neatly found in archetypes of fiction and legend. To each their own.p1r8z0rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02232264043854801391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-3099566974455073322021-10-20T17:34:59.199-07:002021-10-20T17:34:59.199-07:00@p1r8z0r
Words have the connotations they have f...@p1r8z0r <br /><br />Words have the connotations they have for any given person, they can't just -decide- to have another, no matter how well justified.<br /><br />Ask the tufted titmouse or the african wild ass.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-240611013984225842021-10-20T16:27:29.117-07:002021-10-20T16:27:29.117-07:00Bard are not a profession, they are a social class...Bard are not a profession, they are a social class and a calling in their own right. The ones that are recorded in history have close to mythic status, but the ones of legend, especially the Welsh, are almost as powerful and mythic as druids. Let go of our collective, modern ideas of bard = travelling musician. They are keepers of law, practitioners of enchantments, shapechangers, tricksters, and the only people who can bestow or remove curses. Here's a good place to start: http://bestoflegends.org/kingarthur/bards.html<br /><br />If you haven't already read The Mabinogi, I highly recommend the translation by Patrick K Ford, because he traces the stories, and the role of bard, back to the bronze age and those zaney proto-indo-europeans and their horse-fucking ways. <br /><br />This is why the 1e AD&D bard was written the way it was, as something powerful to be earned. In 1e play they are a powerhouse: You can charm with the magic of music. You are learned. You are a warrior-hero, a scoundrel, and a holy man. Kings both fear and court bards because they understand the power they have over minds and rumors.<br /><br />Bards were neutered in 2e and have never recovered.<br /><br />That's my two coppers and I'm sticking by it.p1r8z0rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02232264043854801391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-57016057757838575072021-10-20T07:14:48.204-07:002021-10-20T07:14:48.204-07:00I usually run endless kitchen-sink D&D campaig...I usually run endless kitchen-sink D&D campaigns, so the Troubadour was meant to be somebody who was social with humans but also had legit useful dungeon skills for when nobody spoke your language except the rust golems progammed to kill anything that movedZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-4286669235838305822021-10-20T07:11:26.821-07:002021-10-20T07:11:26.821-07:00I don’t know if this counts as an argument or not....I don’t know if this counts as an argument or not. Just wanting to contribute to the conversation about bards. I run a campaign on the big judges guild hex maps, and someone wanted to play a bard. <br /><br />I never liked the musical magic aspect, so I nixed that, but instead gave the bard the ability to perform in towns and villages. If they performed a song about the party’s exploits, a combination of the town’s population and the bard’s level determined how big a radius that story would spread.<br /><br />It’s a way to create a reputation for the party or for individual characters that can affect any and all interactions, including with intelligent monsters in the wilderness or dungeons. <br /><br />We expanded this when the player had the idea to use their powers to malign an enemy and spread nasty rumors about them in the region, so I had it work the same way, and it definitely had a fun mechanical impact on the game.<br /><br />But otherwise, he was mostly what you call a charisma wizard. Always trying to parlay, negotiate, seduce, etc. And because the nature of the campaign involved gallivanting around the countryside where reputation and social interaction, that was largely useful. In the dungeon, he was basically a rogue in combat - though likely to try talking the enemy out of a fight if at all possible.Ωmegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10218017822013052381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-37795623191469950402021-10-20T04:51:43.449-07:002021-10-20T04:51:43.449-07:00@Benjamin Cusack
I don't recall any instance ...@Benjamin Cusack<br /><br />I don't recall any instance where Gandalf speeds up time in the Hobbit, unless you mean the conversation with the trolls, which I took as mostly about keeping them from noticing the passage of time, not speeding things up. <br />For the letter, prestidigitation is a good word for it - just like modern "magic tricks", slight of hand and clever thinking are quite possibly all there is too it - just as his knowledge of fireworks and "explosive powders" is plausibly magic to his audience, but does not feel magic to a modern person with some education about how these things work. Lupis42https://www.blogger.com/profile/12165193723837415015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-82191123466033023362021-10-20T04:12:51.826-07:002021-10-20T04:12:51.826-07:00@lupis42, yes, his magic in the trilogy is definit...@lupis42, yes, his magic in the trilogy is definitely more low magic. But I think a big part of this is that in the hobbit, he is a wizard. In the Lord of the rings, he is an Istari, and the differences make his actions very different. Tolkien had more plot to do, more planning and reasons and world building. I think it might be even be considered a different character in some ways.<br />Good examples though.<br />I think this also applies to Harry Potter, who for the most part succeeds because of friends and emotions and actions, not the spells he knows. In fact, it is mostly down to true magic, ie emotions, for most all conflicts. Things like friendship and love are upheld as the underlying sources of magic, and I think that this kind of magic was directly from what you are describing about gandalf.<br />Thank you for the excellent response!<br />Also, could you weigh in in the letter? Or the speeding up time?<br />These seem to be largely disregarded in the discussions about the hobbit I have had, but they are incredibly interesting if they are magic.Becami Cusackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07217505009455196473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-28856305942298887402021-10-20T03:34:22.432-07:002021-10-20T03:34:22.432-07:00A theater is a really good haul for a party. Ough...A theater is a really good haul for a party. Ought to be a lot of XP with that much treasure!Lupis42https://www.blogger.com/profile/12165193723837415015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-26629331393004679262021-10-20T03:27:36.926-07:002021-10-20T03:27:36.926-07:00@Savage Wombat+Zak
Paladin is the other one that ...@Savage Wombat+Zak<br /><br />Paladin is the other one that interests me most, being another highly divisive class in D&D in general, and also notably lighter on explicitly named examples in the most popular sources - LoTR being the most prominent one. <br /><br />Rangers are too familiar to modern people, as even park rangers (wrangle bears and other big scary monstrous wildlife, survive and rescue people in the wilderness) are pretty adventurous by nature, and it wasn't that long ago that Texas Rangers was basically "D&D adventurer, but as a career choice". Even if LoTR hadn't used the word explicitly, I don't think it would be nearly as unfamiliar a concept as Paladin or Bard are to a lot of people.Lupis42https://www.blogger.com/profile/12165193723837415015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-24262421580285632592021-10-20T03:23:00.538-07:002021-10-20T03:23:00.538-07:00@Lupis42
Shakespeare and his friends did steal an...@Lupis42<br /><br />Shakespeare and his friends did steal an entire theater:<br /><br />https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3349063/Shakespeare-armed-robbers-stole-theatre-rebuilt-Globe-document-reveals.htmlZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-9894376769273758062021-10-20T03:18:46.682-07:002021-10-20T03:18:46.682-07:00@Benjamin Cusack
Gandalf does more showy tricks i...@Benjamin Cusack<br /><br />Gandalf does more showy tricks in the Hobbit, I was thinking more of LoTR, which I think drove a lot more subsequent fantasy, and where many of his great story shaking moments (Awakening Theoden, rallying the defenses at Minas Tirith, facing down the Witch King after the gates breach) do not rely on any overt magic at all. That's not all he does certainly, but those things are much more powerful and drive the plot, while making fire in impossible circumstances, producing light without a torch, and the flashes and bangs of the Hobbit all seem quite fitting for someone who knows a lot about fireworks, and don't involve the great displays of power of, say, the great darkness that covers the world for days. <br /><br />@Zak<br /><br />This definitely seems to be about archetypes, which is why I go to that question. I imagine Shakespeare, had he taken a slightly different path in life, could have very easily been a kind of adventurer, parlaying his ability to enthrall people directly (he was an actor before he was a playwright) and his skill with language for diplomacy. Certainly, if I was organizing a raid on a Dragon's lair, and thought we might have to talk to the Dragon, he'd be the guy I'd tap for that. Though Robert Burns (also known as The Bard to Scots, in the same way Shakespeare is to the English) might be another good candidate. <br />The D&D bard has always made me think of Cacafonix (from the Asterix books), rather than of any of the bards from more typically D&D style sword-and-sorcery stuff, and if my go-to idea of what a Bard is was more like that, I'd be looking for something else to call the class. Not sure what I'd land on though. Lupis42https://www.blogger.com/profile/12165193723837415015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-81457646993040210442021-10-20T01:03:40.963-07:002021-10-20T01:03:40.963-07:00@CJGeringer
What you're decribing fits comple...@CJGeringer<br /><br />What you're decribing fits completely and exactly into what I was talking about in 4. The Charisma-guy. That idea is discussed.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-20737248012739725032021-10-20T01:03:32.662-07:002021-10-20T01:03:32.662-07:00@Savage wOmbat
The name was always a little weird...@Savage wOmbat<br /><br />The name was always a little weird to me when I was younger (isn't that a guy who chases Yogi Bear?), but since nearly all of my adult gaming life was during the era of the Peter Jackson LoTR movies and Game of Thrones, which use the word "ranger" in a very genre-specific context, the concept seems to land differently. Plus being a wilderness tracking/survival/fighting bears person is not a useless skill when fighting goblins.<br /><br />Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-48471878519717642442021-10-19T23:44:09.690-07:002021-10-19T23:44:09.690-07:00To me this is an interesting discussion because I ...To me this is an interesting discussion because I really like bards, however this discussion completely ignored how I use them in my tables: As actual Bards and ministrels. Like you can find in Warhammer/Zweihander or GURPS: Celtic Mith/vikings/russia, <br /><br />I entered the hobby via things Like Gurps, and History-focused RPGs, and real World Legends and Fantasy literature, and didn´t really have much to do with D&D, and while Bards are an important aspect of my fantasy games, they don´t really fit in any of the 4 arquetypes you mentioned in the begining. They are characters focused on knowledge and social interactions. Most don´t even have magic.<br /><br />A good bard can gain entry into restricted social spaces and gather information (Or plant information without arising suspicion, as well as reduce or stoke tensions between Characters and factions (NPCs or Not), help reduce stress and mental afflictions to entertainment. They can increase the party´s fame (And thus pay and opportunities).<br /><br />When they do approach magic they are more effects like charming and calming animals, wich probably wouldn´t be much fun in your standard dungeon Crawl full of monster and fantastic animals but can be very good in games where battle is dangerous and to be avoided when possible, where monsters are rare set pieces, and being able to calm the party´s animals when a dangerous creature is lurking can be useful.<br /><br />I do have a folk-lore inpired chanter spellcasting subclass that does magic trough singing, their main feature being that their spell can keep going for longer if they can keep their music going, but they are not bards.CJGeringerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10367654304370593518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-19958452617071956392021-10-19T21:57:50.918-07:002021-10-19T21:57:50.918-07:00Having read your views on bards, I'm curious a...Having read your views on bards, I'm curious as to your perspective on rangers. Savage Wombathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02068150984481051832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-62099723153481420142021-10-19T18:37:33.974-07:002021-10-19T18:37:33.974-07:00@lupis42 You said "With regards to the type o...@lupis42 You said "With regards to the type of magic, bards are almost always tied with the more subtle, low magic that you see from someone like Gandalf, which helps drive the question of whether it's even really magic, or whether it's just force of personality and power of music to stir the emotions of those who hear it, changing the moods or minds of even large groups of people"<br />Gandalf has very few examples of doing magic, but most often it ain't subtle.<br />Prestidigitation for the letter, cracking the rock/speeding up time, lightning bolt, leaping flames.<br />I think that is all the spells/magic from the hobbit, if there are more let me know.<br />If this is the case, one of them was not immediately obvious.<br /><br />Also, aren't bards quite obvious? Like if you are playing music mid fight, or anytime in a dungeon, that is not subtle.Becami Cusackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07217505009455196473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-30347046355848603012021-10-19T18:33:21.874-07:002021-10-19T18:33:21.874-07:00I actually don't think I'd read your reaso...I actually don't think I'd read your reasoning for your distaste for bards, so that was good to catch. Looks like the disagreement went reasonably well. I have nothing to add since my own distaste is based on the kinds of players attracted to bards in their later forms, and it's just a sweeping generalization.Kyle Tnoreply@blogger.com