tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post8477099233880120354..comments2024-03-28T22:00:35.840-07:00Comments on Playing D&D With Porn Stars: Character Optimization and Easy ModeZak Sabbathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-1812376588359319422020-12-31T07:47:39.459-08:002020-12-31T07:47:39.459-08:00@Carcharoth666
It's difficult for me to tell....@Carcharoth666<br /><br />It's difficult for me to tell.<br /><br />Could you please -cut- and then -paste- the text I wrote that you believe is misleading. It will save time.<br /><br />If you can't, then I won't be sure I know what you're talking about and we won't be able to continue.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-69537381673959044742020-12-31T07:45:06.439-08:002020-12-31T07:45:06.439-08:00No the way you phrased what you said was not accur...No the way you phrased what you said was not accurate. Talking about player choices in general isn't the same as talking about character generation choices in particular. If a restaurant's bottled water tastes bad you don't go around saying that their menu items taste bad. It is techinally correct, but misleading. Your way of arguing is frustrating.<br /><br />Carcharoth666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-79920886881628262142020-12-31T07:18:26.056-08:002020-12-31T07:18:26.056-08:00@Carcharoth666
"Then you should have clarifi...@Carcharoth666<br /><br />"Then you should have clarified that you are referring to character generation choices *ONLY* and not anything that happens in actual play."<br /><br />No. The way I phrased what I said was accurate. That is: by reading the literal words literally, the english meaning of my sentence was accurate.<br /><br />Even if it was -unclear- to you, you still -assumed- that it applied to a limited field (for no reason) and this assumption lead you to believe it was an irrational statement.<br /><br />There was the literal interpretation (which is correct) and an imaginary one you made up (which isn't). It's strange you would default to picking the irrational one and then not bother to ask if it was what I meant<br /><br />You must never -assume- a negative thing without first asking a question.<br /><br />So: Since you did that thing, you can now apologize for making your assumption.<br /><br />Once you apologize for making a negative assumption about what I wrote without asking a clarifying question first, we can move on to all the other things you said.<br /><br />If you're not rational enough to do that, we'll have to stop talking to each other.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-90132076473373177092020-12-31T07:09:32.031-08:002020-12-31T07:09:32.031-08:00I see. Then you should have clarified that you are...I see. Then you should have clarified that you are referring to character generation choices *ONLY* and not anything that happens in actual play. By they way, "interesting" choices doesn't sound like it applies to writing things on a character sheet, since that's the part that happens before the game is on, and the interesting things start happening. <br />Plus, min-maxing isn't necessarily limited to character generation, either. Min-maxing can take the form of choosing to use the most powerful weapon instead of the one you like aesthetically, etc. Your position on this whole thing is mind-numbing and badly thought out, sorry.Carcharoth666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-61164046027204981582020-12-31T04:27:40.014-08:002020-12-31T04:27:40.014-08:00@Carcharoth666
Ok, thank you for finally answerin...@Carcharoth666<br /><br />Ok, thank you for finally answering the question. Here is your confusion:<br /><br />"You said min-maxing limits the number of interesting choices a player has to make."<br /><br />This may be what I said, but here's what you said:<br /><br />"You are the one that irrationally claims that charop somehow limits what words can come out of the player's mouth that dictates what his character does".<br /><br /><br />That is a totally different sentence with a different meaning.<br /><br />A -PLAYER- is a human being whose choices include:<br /><br />-Nongame choices (snacks, etc)<br />-Character creation choices (which ARE limited in character gen if you're minmaxing, because certain choices are not minmax-friendly for certain builds, just like if you want to fill a box you can't choose to leave a space empty)<br />and<br />-Character actions in game (which are NOT limited).<br /><br />-----<br /><br /><br />The sentence "min-maxing limits the number of interesting choices a player has to make" <br />includes<br />character <br />generation choices.<br /><br />The sentence you originally said "charop somehow limits what words can come out of the player's mouth that dictates what his character does"<br />does<br />NOT<br />include<br />character<br />generation.<br /><br />Since "what a character does" is not stuff that happens in character generation.<br /><br />Do you see the difference?<br /><br />Your options for response are:<br /><br />"Yes" (this is the response that agrees with me)<br /><br />"No" (this is the response that doesn't agree with me)<br /><br />"I don't understand" (this is the response that does neither).<br /><br />-----<br /><br />Your next response must answer that question: Do you see the difference?Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-49825573573801144532020-12-31T04:16:53.049-08:002020-12-31T04:16:53.049-08:00You said min-maxing limits the number of interesti...You said min-maxing limits the number of interesting choices a player has to make. The number of interesting choices a player has to make are only limited by the actions his character can take. <br />And the actions his character can take are only limited by the words coming out of the player's mouth.<br />Think harder next time.carcharoth666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-13838400891335851602020-12-30T00:10:39.462-08:002020-12-30T00:10:39.462-08:00@carcharoth666
If you believe the question is &qu...@carcharoth666<br /><br />If you believe the question is "loaded" (I think you mean leading) then state the premise of the question that makes it impossible to answer.<br /><br />You claimed in an earlier response that -I- claimed charop limits what a player can say. I asked you to cite the place where I said that.<br /><br />If you have trouble with that question: say -specifically- what the problem is with the question in your next response.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-28274002239613066842020-12-30T00:04:10.994-08:002020-12-30T00:04:10.994-08:00"Bloo bloo why don't you directly answer ..."Bloo bloo why don't you directly answer my loaded questions"<br />One can dodge them just fine in real life. In fact it is a great way to not let someone try to control the conversation like you are trying to do.<br />You know what you can't do in a polite conversation in real life? Tell someone "agree with me or you lose your voice", namely what you are doing in these comments.Carcharoth666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-6887153422186393432020-12-29T05:33:49.818-08:002020-12-29T05:33:49.818-08:00@Carcharoth666
Deleted. Misinformation is not all...@Carcharoth666<br /><br />Deleted. Misinformation is not allowed on the blog.<br /><br />An -interrogation- require coercive power: I have no coercive power over you, oh rando.<br /><br />A -conversation- means you act as if we are at a table in real life: in real life if <br />a person asks you a question, you either answer it or it'd get real uncomfortable and everyone would stare at you.<br /><br />The fact this conversation is taking place on the internet allows you to pretend it's not weird to dodge questions you're asked, but it's still not helpful.<br /><br />So, last chance: <br /><br />You may help the conversation along by answering the question you were asked, or you can get very excited about your right to not be helpful to anyone and not do that.<br /><br />You dont' have to wear a covid mask either--no-one can force you. But it might help if you did.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-66054754407404869342020-12-29T05:08:41.593-08:002020-12-29T05:08:41.593-08:00@Carcharoth666
p.s. It will help to use the numbe...@Carcharoth666<br /><br />p.s. It will help to use the numbers--that way everyone reading can follow what you write.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-67332255222397960542020-12-29T05:07:06.367-08:002020-12-29T05:07:06.367-08:00@Carcharoth666
Deleted. You can't leave comme...@Carcharoth666<br /><br />Deleted. You can't leave comments without answering questions the other party asked.<br /><br />You failed immediately, with question #1:<br />"1. I did not claim charop limits what players can -say-. If you accept this, apologize. If you believe I did cut and paste that text."<br /><br />You must address that and all others before making statements or asking questions of your own. <br /><br />This is a place for conversations where people learn things and interact, not just yell. If you want to participate, try harder to be helpful to people who can't read your mind.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-67179767731925616992020-12-28T12:34:40.273-08:002020-12-28T12:34:40.273-08:00@Carcharoth666
All your points are addressed belo...@Carcharoth666<br /><br />All your points are addressed below. You must answer questions to be allowed to comment, though, so address these in your next comment and answer all questions:<br /><br />1. I did not claim charop limits what players can -say-. If you accept this, apologize. If you believe I did cut and paste that text. <br /><br />2. Other numbers can directly affect "staying alive". If you are trying to kill a creature that will kill you if you don't do so quickly, offensive and problem-solving stats matter too.<br /><br />3. So answer the original question "If someone is trying to stay alive and has a character build that makes that harder (because they are not optimized) how is that -not- harder for that player?"<br /><br />4. re: The "tourist protector" PC is taking on a challenge then as well. They may or may not enjoy that.<br /><br />5. re: The "tourist protector". Only if someone both a) chooses to do this AND b) is totally successful have they totally removed the challenge for the unoptimized PC. Address this.<br /><br />Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-32118417558793000452020-12-28T09:40:55.106-08:002020-12-28T09:40:55.106-08:00You are the one that irrationally claims that char...You are the one that irrationally claims that charop somehow limits what words can come out of the player's mouth that dictates what his character does, so you are the one that must provide proof for this irrational claim.<br /><br />"Staying alive"<br />So charop is only about defensive stats like saveing throws and hit points? Because these are the only numbers that directly affect "staying alive". What about the unoptimized tourist that manages to "stay alive" because the optimized player managed, through skill and luck, kill the monster or disarm the trap, while he sat around "playing hard mode" and being useless?<br /><br />Your entire argument is irrational and makes no sense. Carcharoth666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-41973398535979393492020-12-27T16:04:07.244-08:002020-12-27T16:04:07.244-08:00@Carcharoth666
You have made a claim but provided...@Carcharoth666<br /><br />You have made a claim but provided no proof.<br /><br />If someone is trying to stay alive and has a character build that makes that harder (because they are not optimized) how is that -not- harder for that player?<br /><br />Please answer.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-44362180166031426792020-12-27T12:46:59.087-08:002020-12-27T12:46:59.087-08:00Playing a sub-optimal character does in no way lea...Playing a sub-optimal character does in no way lead to a greater amount of "interesting choices" during actual play. That's just an irrational thing that people who can't be bothered to optimize characters tell themselves. Anything an unoptimized character can do, an optimized one can do better. <br /><br />It does make it harder, but only for the other players with the optimized characters who are actually putting some effort into playing the game, and not for the unoptimized tourist who will fuck around being a useless waste of space, regardless.Carcharoth666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-8385889226151115352020-12-27T01:20:03.068-08:002020-12-27T01:20:03.068-08:00I realize my previous conclusion dead-ends the dis...I realize my previous conclusion dead-ends the discussion but you tend to expect a level of intellectual honesty out of conversation that seems unrealistic when the discussion is intended to provoke reflection among a group of people who often don't reflect enough<br /><br />There's something to be said about the idea of looking up builds on forums and copying them - that this essentially sets the bar for play makes you wonder why they don't just hand these sorts of things out as premades instead of making you waste your time with a bunch of research.<br /><br />Sometimes people like having a lot of stupid bullshit to gnaw on in a game in between the moments of creativity and expression. I'm a huge fan of fighting games and the community tends to form pockets around certain games based off how much they want to focus on different parts of the "lonely work" aspect of getting good at the game. In the end you can't be a strong competitor without strong actually-playing-another-person skills but a lot of people seem happy to just give people math tests instead of engaging with the human on the other side of the screen and getting a hit of seratonin from knowing they did more video game homework than someone else.<br /><br />A bit meandering again, but my point is people like to get into places with barriers to entry. Beyond that, watching people fail to clear those hurdles makes some people feel smart and special.<br /><br />Does it? Probably not, but people bought and wore those stupid magnet bracelets for like a whole decade. People are good at lying to themselves about how they feel.McCabrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09431339937327172881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-81723634407681489162020-12-27T01:02:11.411-08:002020-12-27T01:02:11.411-08:00There's a lot here, and I'd imagine there&...There's a lot here, and I'd imagine there's a lot of motivations<br /><br />"Lonely math" is fun for people who like thinking about dnd by themselves and also doing math at the same time<br /><br />I'm not really sure what your experience is with real-life nerds is but they have weird social skills. It's not uncommon to see two grown men screaming at each other over interpretations of some rpg rule or another which points to a few probable realities:<br />Their ability to interact with people requires codification in the form of rules because due to autism spectrum personality traits they find uncertainty unbearable (or uncomfortable and they are weak manchildren). Rules focus causes excessive consumption of rulebooks and optimization is a natural outcome of staring at the system like that<br /><br />They are highly emotionally invested in the outcome of the story of the game, for reasons good or bad, and view character power as their primary way of influencing that outcome. Making "suboptimal" choices is leaving that power on the table - it can cause a sort of anxiety around it when you're really into the game and don't get to play a lot for whatever reason<br /><br />Self-esteem issues are common in nerds, and, going back to the role of rules in their worldview, demonstrating understanding is how they might prove their worth to themselves and, possibly others.<br /><br />I remember getting into it with my dm in my first campaign ever when the rules wouldn't let my ranger take the fighter feat to do more damage with a bow - it didn't even explain what the fighter was doing to be more deadly, he just was because he was a fighter.<br /><br />Slight aside, but I think it shows a rules-as-representation-of-ideas worldview running up against a rules-as-an-expression-of-game-math design<br /><br />I'd imagine your characters come in the variety of<br />Guy you've played a lot<br />Organically leveled based off what seems neat, what your character got up to, or what might he helpful for the direction of the campaign<br />Random rolls and then whatever makes the character functional<br />Neat idea you had and whatever you can take that gets you close or whatever you can convince the DM to let you make up<br /><br />Basically, you (as in Zak) seem more likely to start with "I wanna play as the pope of the Pig Cult, so I've got like a lord of the flies looking scepter and I can summon feral hogs" or whatever then you go looking for a spell that summons hogs and just make your guy whatever can cast that<br /><br />Other people just see a bunch of keywords in a rulebook and stack them on a character sheet that says "rogue 10" at the top then kind of add a character to it.<br /><br />I dunno, I feel like it's just a lot of compulsion borne from staring at game texts and this is the way the eventual drive for productive use of time presents itself. Sometimes it's people enjoying what you describe as lonely math, other times it's an unhealthy compulsion and the people who you're asking are either not honest enough or haven't done enough reflection to tell you that themselves.McCabrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09431339937327172881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-84645766649411475192020-12-25T15:47:28.062-08:002020-12-25T15:47:28.062-08:00@Adam
Incorrect, because you still have to play--...@Adam<br /><br />Incorrect, because you still have to play--and if it's a typical RPG then play goes on for weeks or months or years.<br /><br />The people with the sucky builds are experiencing more challenge than the person with the good ones. They have to, in those weeks and months, make many more choices that matter.<br /><br />While the choice between the 2 kinds of builds is -important in determining which route you go- the -central challenge- (that is: what you spend most of your time doing after that first day) is still playing with that chosen build.<br /><br />So: please address that.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-56972041988009712982020-12-25T15:43:22.875-08:002020-12-25T15:43:22.875-08:00You can imagine a game in which 95% of the charact...You can imagine a game in which 95% of the character builds suck, 5% are great. You have to analyze the game and pick the good one, otherwiese your character will suck. If the difference between the builds that suck and the good ones is big enough, optimizing your character is the central challange of the game.Adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04428660523475361629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-6794505336799173992020-12-24T15:56:37.174-08:002020-12-24T15:56:37.174-08:00*the assumption, not “do you sumption”*the assumption, not “do you sumption”Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-2301124866095615112020-12-24T15:55:13.744-08:002020-12-24T15:55:13.744-08:00@eric rollins
in both cases it seems like men max...@eric rollins<br /><br />in both cases it seems like men maxing the character is not in anyway a challenge at that point because it seems as if it’s considered to be such common (and shared) knowledge that you can actually make it a requirement.<br /><br />you can minimax the character without bringing any new insight to the table. <br /><br />In fact you’re being asked to play on the only mode there is in those setups by doing a bunch of lonely work before coming.<br /><br />with wow, Do you Sumption is that if you don’t minMax as much as possible you’re creating a situation where you are endangering other peoples’ characters more than you need to And (i tthink) making it less likely they’ll be able to play in the future with those leveled up characters that they like.<br /><br />with Path society, it sounds like theyve effectively made playing at all highly dependent on -paying a lot of attention to the books or other Path community members- rather than making minmaxing the hard part.<br /><br />It’s a bit like saying “You cannot eat this specific meal unless you go to this very inconveniet store that we own”— qualifying is simply onerous, not a challenge.<br /><br />In the wow situation the speed of how you handle your game character and react to events is still the main challenge and i the path society example It still sounds like the real challenge is tactical choices that you make in reaction to what unfolds when you do actually play.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-36092908811498639212020-12-24T15:13:16.186-08:002020-12-24T15:13:16.186-08:00World of Warcraft guilds often raid the same dunge...World of Warcraft guilds often raid the same dungeon every night. The objective is to maximize the loot haul. Players who refuse to min-max optimize their characters for raiding get un-invited.<br /><br />Turns out Pathfinder Society convention play is the same thing. Not only have all the other players at the table played the module before, they often have all DMed it before. They are playing again to each get that last bit of loot. The difficulty level of the module is set assuming character min-max optimization with all the supplements, so the party likely wipes if not all the players have done the min-max.<br />Eric Rollinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10320714702919518976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-70748668595503220002020-12-23T04:23:39.895-08:002020-12-23T04:23:39.895-08:00@Benjamin Cusack
This is a different--though prob...@Benjamin Cusack<br /><br />This is a different--though probably realer and more difficult--conversation.<br /><br />Managing real players is more important than blinkered theorists on the internet. But, still, the theorists have had an impact.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-10762008143736468452020-12-23T04:21:38.945-08:002020-12-23T04:21:38.945-08:00Agreed, the main problem is that differentiating t...Agreed, the main problem is that differentiating these two groups can be very problematic.<br />And that is where communicating with players benefits the whole group, with the people knowing who wants to be at what level of complexity or interaction.<br />Some people want to change their voice and map the dungeon and get invested, while others may want to use Action A for Problem A.Becami Cusackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07217505009455196473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-19961680484395921222020-12-23T04:16:22.183-08:002020-12-23T04:16:22.183-08:00@Benjamin Cusack
Depends:
-The person who fires ...@Benjamin Cusack<br /><br />Depends:<br /><br />-The person who fires the crossbow because that's their level of engagement at the momen ( http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2010/01/how-much-do-you-want-to-be-wizard_15.html ) is fine. I bear them no ill-will.<br /><br />-The person who assumes that that is "the game" and that any other action is somehow avoiding the rules or not playing or a marginal activity not core to the game--this person is not paying attention and, yes, not thinking too hard.<br /><br /><br /><br />Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.com