tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post7449899846295539736..comments2024-03-19T16:24:23.777-07:00Comments on Playing D&D With Porn Stars: How Much Do You Want To Be A Wizard?Zak Sabbathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-59548089757073844442016-07-13T00:44:12.989-07:002016-07-13T00:44:12.989-07:00Interesting analysis.
I think (A)D&D is ofte...Interesting analysis. <br /><br />I think (A)D&D is often more like being down the pub with your mates than at a wedding. A wedding is a 'one shot' adventure with many strangers, the pub is more like a adventure campaign with mates. But otherwise great analogy.<br /><br />I've never done 'story telling' games, except during drama class a school. I've watched a YouTube video (about fiasco?) found it interesting at first, then decided it wasn't a good fit for me (for many of the reasons you give above). Also listened to a live podcast about another sciifi story game (can't recall which).<br /><br />In the game I didn't I like the 'back-to-front' decide the outcome then tell me how the outcome occurred mechanism. <br /><br />In most RPGs you make a choice and see what happens (you take a stake). In the story telling game I watched, it seems the outcome was not at all important just a frame to tell a story around. Nothing at stake (for want of a better expression) no gamble. Each game is a one shot, nothing really invested in it, a soap bubble (which is OK I guess, but not for me). <br /><br />In A(D&D), like being down the pub, you can learn something about your fellow participants, in the storygame I watched, I think I only learned how good an improver the players were, and how pleased some of them were with their ability. <br /><br />Also, in the storytelling game I watched it seemed more like ... "Me, me, me", my time to show off - a collective of individuals in a room, each taking turns to do a set piece, not really shared game play!<br /><br />Overall, you 'learned' me some good stuff, and I may well be over generalising from a very shallow base. Ramble over! <br />GHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08376216755762478317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-84724099737173908482013-08-01T00:44:47.683-07:002013-08-01T00:44:47.683-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Patrick Mallahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04906639025904535922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-59280757945889015452012-01-29T02:40:46.105-08:002012-01-29T02:40:46.105-08:00Ah, not to knock D&D-style gaming. If this “be...Ah, not to knock D&D-style gaming. If this “best of” thinking ends up being 100% like D&D and 0% like the indie games, that will be fine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-24734206108373613102012-01-29T02:31:33.432-08:002012-01-29T02:31:33.432-08:00Great essay!
So the Scylla and Charybdis of never-...Great essay!<br />So the Scylla and Charybdis of never-player-RPG-before fear are fear-of-boring/complex-rules and fear-of-being-put-on-the spot.<br />I think something good will come out of this insight, something that carries with it the best of “Story now”–type games and D&D.<br />Thank you so much.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-12580323551085964782010-02-23T18:38:43.418-08:002010-02-23T18:38:43.418-08:00Todd,
I see your point and appreciate you diggin...Todd, <br /><br />I see your point and appreciate you digging up this dead post just to say that, but, for me, to play a pre-gen would be largely to remove the very thing that I think is interesting about the Pool from the game.<br /><br />Not that it couldn;t be fun under some circumstances--merely that the hook ,for me, would be the weird events that Pool-style character gen could kick off.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-37240936802810372532010-02-23T17:27:12.670-08:002010-02-23T17:27:12.670-08:00Zak,
Your description of The Pool as only suitabl...Zak,<br /><br />Your description of The Pool as only suitable for high-player-authorship play is inaccurate.<br /><br />There's nothing preventing a Pool player from shifting gears (mid-game or for an entire game) into a very passive mode and letting the GM invent all the adversity and roll-results.<br /><br />I've run quick Pool scenarios with plots like "The Lost Puppy Tries To Find His Way Home"-- for players who were too-timid (or just couldn't be bothered) to make-up a bunch of shxt all the time.<br /><br />Here's a pre-gen character to spare Mandy any headache:<br /><br />Jumping +1<br />Eat Mushroom to Grow +1<br />Plumber +1Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08057768660113827411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-58474883119221484612010-02-19T18:59:06.130-08:002010-02-19T18:59:06.130-08:00Damn right. The problem with D&D for experien...Damn right. The problem with D&D for experienced players is that it's not super-good at any one thing...which is what makes it awesome for a mixed group of people, which is what most of us will have over time...Tim Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15636548887356044925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-69163509785887256692010-02-18T12:47:29.753-08:002010-02-18T12:47:29.753-08:00Joe--
Abstractions like "a gamer" and &...Joe--<br /><br />Abstractions like "a gamer" and "a non-gamer" are useless here.<br /><br />I am thinking of specific actual people, many of whom were non-gamers just scant months ago.<br /><br />What makes them like DIY D&D and what makes them, in some cases, not suitable for certain other games right at this moment isn't expectations about gaming, it's their actual individual personalities.<br /><br />Come to think of it, I talk about that a lot in the post.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-15556907383228932382010-02-18T12:09:24.471-08:002010-02-18T12:09:24.471-08:00Hey Zak,
As someone who loves those "Forge-s...Hey Zak,<br /><br />As someone who loves those "Forge-style games", I think you really did a tremendous job of exploring the differences between them and D&D.<br /><br />It's really even-handed. I feel respected in my desire to be way down the end of the spectrum (heavily-player-generated, heavily-thematic play), and I totally get and appreciate where you want to be.<br /><br />Interestingly, I think that it's easier to "convert" a non-gamer to indie games than it is to convert a traditional gamer. Why is that? First, I think it's because those non-gamers don't have the connotations and context that, say, you would. And so when you ask them to do "GM stuff", they won't have any clue that it's "GM stuff", or what a GM is, or that there are groups with less creative responsibility out there. Often, newcomers will even step above their creative responsibility, deciding its a good idea to start introducing new NPCs, etc.<br /><br />So, while I agree with everything in your post, I wanted to throw that dimension into the conversation. What constitutes "work" is culturally defined, to a degree.<br /><br />As another example, I bet logging XP after a fight doesn't seem like a lot of work to you. To others, that's an inordinate amount of bookkeeping to do during their free time. (And look at Burning Wheel, where you have to log every single test you take! They'd balk for sure.)Joe McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03393763952670464032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-77485323283744998102010-02-18T10:17:31.631-08:002010-02-18T10:17:31.631-08:00Yeah, the irony content around here is way too hig...Yeah, the irony content around here is way too high for a steady diet of character-defining drama. A little bit, mixed in with a metric ton of comedy and death seems to be the best way to go for us.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-59345891858056513952010-02-18T08:53:44.199-08:002010-02-18T08:53:44.199-08:00I completely agree. I noticed that Burning Wheel w...I completely agree. I noticed that Burning Wheel works best with players who themselves are comfortable GMing. There are some people who just aren't comfortable making stuff up on the spot - whether they haven't got much of a repertoire (of history, stories, whatever) to draw on, or there are other inhibitions at work (fear of embarassment or exposure).<br /><br />Another factor is how many other games the player is involved in. You can bring a lot of energy to your one game, but if you're in three parallel games, that takes a lot out of you.<br /><br />Having said that, I find I really enjoy what you get when you've got all that creativity at your fingertips. My strongest memories of D&D was comedy at the table or the occasional painful loss of a character (e.g. our TPK at the hands of a mind flayer).<br /><br />My strongest memories of Burning Wheel are the moments of intense, character-defining drama (e.g. Aelfred sealing the dying priestess in her tomb and taking up her mantle; Orestes' religious conversion after being healed of a mortal wound; Halden Benir trying to shame his adulterous wife into suicide.)Michael Prescotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04704966067758312492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-84876049176849545712010-02-17T18:09:24.900-08:002010-02-17T18:09:24.900-08:00hey, thanks, interesting...
it's not that we ...hey, thanks, interesting...<br /><br />it's not that we don't want to be creative, it's that we're moody--that's the point.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-87192331000854697712010-02-17T17:26:10.784-08:002010-02-17T17:26:10.784-08:00Hey Zak, this post spurned some discussion amongst...Hey Zak, this post spurned some discussion amongst my RPG podcasting peers. We recorded an episode all about this blog post. I'd love it if you could give a listen when you have a chance.<br /><br />http://www.canonpuncture.com/2010/02/canon-puncture-86-indie-games-with-pornstars/<br /><br />Rich<br />Canon Puncture Show<br />www.canonpuncture.comOrklordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08949094354541446010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-13052901612077823092010-02-11T19:39:08.546-08:002010-02-11T19:39:08.546-08:00"Are there no rules or forbiddens?"
@al..."Are there no rules or forbiddens?"<br /><br />@alysdexia: You can find out by <a href="http://www.randomordercreations.com/rpg.htm" rel="nofollow">reading the game</a>. It's less than 2000 words. The short answer is "no, not the sort of rules you're thinking of."d7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08635926744710532548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-37731435576561674372010-01-26T17:13:23.356-08:002010-01-26T17:13:23.356-08:00"Anything you want." Are there no rules ..."Anything you want." Are there no rules or forbiddens?<br /><br />a GM -> one<br />the GM -> whoalysdexiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11185848590491282552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-66204934060624049412010-01-26T01:48:37.700-08:002010-01-26T01:48:37.700-08:00This might be the best blog post I've ever rea...This might be the best blog post I've ever read. Here or anywhere. It's almost like you killed the Old School RPG vs. New School RPG vs. Forgie RPG debate not with blood or ripping dialogue, but with a blunt and a wink. Sorta like saying, "Hey man, it's all cool. You can't do it wrong."<br /><br />Amazing.<br /><br />-=Grim=-GrimJestahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07975463752088292287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-83186549965525798932010-01-24T19:58:55.299-08:002010-01-24T19:58:55.299-08:00Excellent article. I agree that some of the older ...Excellent article. I agree that some of the older systems were easier to buy into than a lot of newer systems I have tried. The group I play with is mostly playing a (modified) version of D&D 4th Edition, and the modifications seem to have made it playable and enjoyable, but as written its too much like an MMORPG on paper for my tastes. <br />I am one of those people who only perks up every once in a while. I don't have much desire to buy into most systems I have to admit, but its for a different set of reasons: I like to understand the mechanics of a game to really feel part of it, but I don't like any of the rules sets I have played in the past few years enough to feel like shelling out a couple of hundred bucks to buy the books required. <br />I think the publishers greed over selling expansion books to rulesets (WOTC is very guilty of this, something I thought we might avoid when they took over TSR. White Wolf seems the Grand Masters of it mind you) is what has kept me out of really adopting any one system, and as a result I generally know only the bare minimum of whats required to play. It means every new game is a learning curve for me, because I am not going to shell out another $40-$60 to buy the rules myself, and someone else owns them. Others in my group are willing to do so, so frequently its 2 or 3 of us that have the rules, but never me. Call me lazy, call me jaded, I dunno, but it never seems like its worthwhile to purchase a set of rules books when I am not sure I will be playing the game 6 months from now.<br />If the complete rules were published in one book, in a light and easily mastered manner, and the rest was left up to the players and GM, I think a new rules set would be much more approachable overall.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13889753024121036004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-28304821140113177772010-01-23T20:58:25.495-08:002010-01-23T20:58:25.495-08:00This is an amazing post in a great blog!
My deal-...This is an amazing post in a great blog!<br /><br />My deal-breaker with D&D 3rd Edition was that I started to feel like the system made it harder for players to really step on up and engage (at least in the particular way that I like). I tried other stuff and eventually ended up with indie/Forgey/story games.<br /><br />The Pool and Shock both strike me as the extreme end as far as Forge games go. Even setting up the game requires a rather massive amount of input from everyone involved. I'm a very "GM-y" player, but I balk at those, too.<br /><br />3:16 is more to my taste. It's D&D-like in a lot of ways. The game presents clear missions to accomplish and you can move the game forward by making some combat rolls, or you can totally burst in and start adding all kinds of stuff freeform-style; most of the game's (light) tactical complexity only shows up when you start competing for kills with the other players. It's a lot like *old* D&D specifically in the way you can put together characters in ten minutes and replace them easily when they die.<br /><br />The big "Forgey" element in 3:16 is that always following where the combat rolls take you leaves you stuck in a Catch-22 nightmare of endless, pointless war. In the long term, you need to find that right moment to punch the plot in your face and make your own.<br /><br />That's a combination of Forgey and, erm, let's call it low-pressure that has worked for me so far.<br /><br />-- AlexAlexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07557851186826951971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-44771319107787028542010-01-21T20:55:56.101-08:002010-01-21T20:55:56.101-08:00Wonderfully insightful, and timely for me too.
I&...Wonderfully insightful, and timely for me too.<br /><br />I've been turning over in my head how to get a game that is midway between the indie and D&D styles of play—Burning Wheel—started with a group that is mostly low buy-in. I've been subconsciously making the same conclusions, so having it articulated here—and so much more besides—is really awesome.<br /><br />Understanding where the quiet players are coming from will serve me well once I get this game going too, so thanks for that. I tend to push a bit too hard for "creative now!" when I'm GMing a game like that, so consciously avoiding that will be much easier know that they're still having fun while being quiet. And, this confirms that my plan of very slowly adding rules complexity as the players show signs of wanting it rather than pushing to ramp it up is a good idea.d7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08635926744710532548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-28137008460278796612010-01-21T02:17:36.508-08:002010-01-21T02:17:36.508-08:00That was a bloody good read - and explains very we...That was a bloody good read - and explains very well why many of my players are so resistant to trying any other games, even though the game they play now is really complicated by comparison.<br /><br />They _KNOW_ the rules already. Learning new ones takes effort that may/may not be worth it... awesome post.Angry Wombathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04033824369630612971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-15221869208454894902010-01-20T20:10:54.040-08:002010-01-20T20:10:54.040-08:00Great post!
(I really don't have anything nov...Great post!<br /><br />(I really don't have anything novel to say... oh the irony.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-28854371221250870482010-01-19T10:07:00.760-08:002010-01-19T10:07:00.760-08:00Zak - dead on. Especially the fear of looking bad...Zak - dead on. Especially the fear of looking bad. You've neatly put your finger on what I sometimes liked about Forge-related games (i.e. I got inspired) and sometimes disliked (i.e. they seemed like a lot of work). Good stuff.Victor Raymondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05928494560036528653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-51871707286491547782010-01-18T07:10:43.401-08:002010-01-18T07:10:43.401-08:00I think your 'table at a wedding' analogy ...I think your 'table at a wedding' analogy is excellent. Because as DMs we are (or at least I am) trying to make sure that everyone is having fun. And I don't think that I need to... <br /><br />We have a new guy in the group that is quiet. I keep wondering if he is having fun, and trying to get him involved. But I shouldn't - my key is that he shows up every week, and I should let him play his own way.<br /><br />Your blog explores these new player/enthusiastic DM dynamics very well Zak.SirAllenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11106665195318475302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-47852597099224583042010-01-17T12:28:06.939-08:002010-01-17T12:28:06.939-08:00Good post, IMAO interesting view.Good post, IMAO interesting view.Caleb The Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06163853394371056451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-75084830197522298692010-01-16T20:52:04.571-08:002010-01-16T20:52:04.571-08:00I appreciate the offer but at the moment real life...I appreciate the offer but at the moment real life is keeping me fairly busy.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.com