tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post677092339262386424..comments2024-03-28T22:00:35.840-07:00Comments on Playing D&D With Porn Stars: Hire Women.Zak Sabbathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comBlogger150125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-61894966398117617742013-02-05T22:45:33.708-08:002013-02-05T22:45:33.708-08:00Yes, I agree. My examples of low-risk situations w...Yes, I agree. My examples of low-risk situations were offline. Sending an email to a friend or publishing to a friends-only LiveJournal or Facebook are other venues where you have a reasonable expectation that the information will not spread in an uncontrolled manner, though even here there can be exceptions.<br /><br />But a public blog post, tweet or Facebook post? You should never put anything in them that you wouldn't want to go viral.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-59174264356057910072013-02-05T20:41:49.318-08:002013-02-05T20:41:49.318-08:00Well, as soon as its on the internet and someone c...Well, as soon as its on the internet and someone can Google it, it's as public as anything else.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-61449822641561627092013-02-05T20:28:06.132-08:002013-02-05T20:28:06.132-08:00All of that makes perfect sense. For me it comes d...All of that makes perfect sense. For me it comes down to what the audience for your talk is. To go back to the hypothetical guy with the 74 rape/dismemberment novels, I'm not going to do any fact checking before I think to myself, "Wow, this guy seems scary." If I make an offhand comment to a friend, I don't see anything all that perilous in remarking, "I bet this dude is seriously creepy in real life."<br /><br />On the other hand, if I'm writing in Time magazine, I'd damn well better check my facts in any possible way before stating anything of the kind. In general, the larger the audience and/or the greater the chance that you could affect someone's life or livelihood, the more careful you have to be.<br /><br />Personally, I don't even like to write negative reviews on Amazon without carefully bounding my criticism and suggesting people who still might like the product. I honestly don't like the idea of hurting someone's livelihood even if it's with criticism that is clearly valid. <br /><br />Thus my personal experience with drawing inference from others' artwork is usually either with inferences that are not negative, or inferences that are drawn in venues that are not likely to have a financial impact on anyone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-8970650102211982952013-02-05T14:14:22.639-08:002013-02-05T14:14:22.639-08:00@tesseractive.
If you don't understand: ask.
...@tesseractive.<br /><br />If you don't understand: ask.<br /><br />Never talk about someone if you could've and didn't talk _to_ them first.<br /><br />Any other action is, again, privileging your desire to talk smack over another person's life and livelihood. Only a jackass would do that.<br /><br />Talk about the work-talk all you want. But the second you talk about the _person_ you have done something you probably didn't need to. What do you get by talking smack on an artist? Fuck all. Like it accomplishes very little. So if you're going to do that, make fucking sure you're sure.<br /><br />Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-50587795495934927012013-02-05T14:07:30.806-08:002013-02-05T14:07:30.806-08:00I'm not particularly convinced that art is a s...I'm not particularly convinced that art is a special case. Consider, say, blog posts and comments. People are always misunderstanding what someone else was trying to say in a blog post or a comment -- indeed, sometimes it can seem like a pleasant surprise if someone *does* understand what you're trying to say. If this results in someone leaving a nasty response, little harm is done. On the other hand, if Bill O'Reilly somehow reads your post, completely misunderstands it, and goes on TV to accuse you of supporting, say, amnesty for child molesters -- well, you've got a pretty big problem, right?<br /><br />In general, people are trying to understand other people all the time -- through their actions, their words, their fashion statements, their art, whatever. And we're virtually always operating with incomplete information, because who ever has complete information about another person? As a result, misunderstanding someone is incredibly common. Now we could withhold all attempts at understanding anyone in the world, but that's not how people work.<br /><br />If I see someone in a police uniform, I am likely to jump to the conclusion that they are a police officer, even though it could turn out that the person is actually a CPA who is heading to a costume party. If I see someone behind the counter at a McDonald's wearing a McDonald's uniform, I am flatly going to assume that person to be an employee unless I get new information that contradicts that assumption.<br /><br />If I see that someone has written 74 novels in which the protagonist enjoys raping and dismembering women, then yes, I'm going to have some strong suspicions about that author, even though those suspicions could be mistaken.<br /><br />Some sorts of assumptions are highly prone to being wrong. Many stereotypes are pernicious. We should all try to battle these, and to correct erroneous judgments we have made. And yes, anyone who knowingly draws negative conclusions very publicly about someone -- while knowing that there is a good chance those conclusions are wrong -- is a bad person. Or at the very least, a person who has done a bad thing. Propagating damaging opinions about someone when you know those opinions are ill-informed is clearly wrong.<br /><br />I just think that this problem is not so severe that it should prevent us from ever inferring anything about anyone ever at any time, even if that ban only applies to artwork.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-76079276428279317082013-02-05T10:44:10.470-08:002013-02-05T10:44:10.470-08:00Fair enough.Fair enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-24450997598540516622013-02-05T10:41:08.262-08:002013-02-05T10:41:08.262-08:00@tesseractive
"It is always possible to make...@tesseractive<br /><br />"It is always possible to make mistakes in inferring authorial intent (as with inference of any sort), but in cases where it at least appears to me to be clear, I tend to apply Occam's Razor judiciously, then revise my opinion if new information appears."<br /><br />That seems stupid in the case of art where, if you infer something bad consequences might ensue whereas if you infer nothing no consequences will ensue.<br /><br />Many people feel absolutely no moral qualms about making an insulting assumption _that they know is a big assumption_ about an artist in public where people might read it and where it might affect that artist's career. Because the life of an artist they don't know is less important to them than their (knowingly) ill-informed opinion.<br /><br />You don't attack people unless you can prove what you're saying.<br /><br />I know the internet might lower peoples' IQ enough that they suddenly think it's right--but it isn't.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-31880152379278410652013-02-05T10:36:17.064-08:002013-02-05T10:36:17.064-08:00I was talking about ""for some people, a...I was talking about ""for some people, art can't be good unless it works for social justice in some way."<br /><br />those people are anhedonic assholes.<br /><br />You are talking about a different but overlapping group:<br />"people who translate their personal distaste into ethical condemnation"<br /><br />Those people are just regular assholes.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-69979127606557618462013-02-05T10:35:06.822-08:002013-02-05T10:35:06.822-08:00I read it, and I'm responding to it.
And than...I read it, and I'm responding to it.<br /><br />And thanks for clarifying -- I wasn't sure whether you were claiming that we shouldn't ascribe any particular authorial intent in common cases, or whether it was an absolute disavowal of ascribing authorial intent in general.<br /><br />I understand your position, and I'm sympathetic to it, but I have to say that I can't entirely agree with it. It is always possible to make mistakes in inferring authorial intent (as with inference of any sort), but in cases where it at least appears to me to be clear, I tend to apply Occam's Razor judiciously, then revise my opinion if new information appears.<br /><br />Personally, I'm willing to agree to disagree on the topic, though you may not be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-81948901948163659762013-02-05T10:20:28.942-08:002013-02-05T10:20:28.942-08:00>"for some people, art can't be good ...>"for some people, art can't be good unless it works for social justice in some way."<br /><br />> These people are anhedonic assholes.<br /><br />Here's an alternate interpretation of a similar phenomenon: I have a visceral negative reaction to depictions of trans women as grotesque. I'm perfectly capable of assessing the quality of the linework or the use of color, but I am simply incapable of enjoying it. If they crop up as part of a larger work that contains a diverse array of other sorts of depictions, my reaction to those depictions of trans women still may prevent me from enjoying the larger work. It's not exactly a "trigger" in the sense that a trigger warning is necessary, it's just something I find fundamentally unpleasant and thus something I can't enjoy.<br /><br />Based on what I've seen people post on the internet, there seem to be people who have similar reactions to certain types of depictions of women, or of black people, gay people, etc.<br /><br />The leap from "I am a trans woman and I do not like these depictions of trans women" to "these depictions are bad and should be stopped" is a pretty easy (which is not to say correct) one in the social justice world, especially for people who subscribe to the common view that the opinions of people in a particular oppressed class have more value on that subject than the opinions of people who are not members of that class -- i.e. "I find this art objectionable, and it's my view that counts, therefore this art is objectionable."<br /><br />It's possible that there are people who have such reactions to all art that features representations they consider inconsistent with social justice, though I'm sure there are people who simply feel that they *shouldn't* like such art, and respond accordingly.<br /><br />As I've tried to make clear, this alternative explanation doesn't make the objectors *correct* in their objections, but I think it's a better *explanation* for them than anhedonism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-48282973700956257432013-02-05T09:22:47.573-08:002013-02-05T09:22:47.573-08:00@tesseractive
Can we conclude something?
Of cours...@tesseractive<br /><br />Can we conclude something?<br />Of course we cannot.<br />Why would we?<br /><br />Not that I expect you to read or respond to this.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-50851232891311023022013-02-05T07:48:19.397-08:002013-02-05T07:48:19.397-08:00@zac,
I've been catching up on this blog and ...@zac,<br /><br />I've been catching up on this blog and find this an interesting claim.<br /><br />I agree that we can stipulate that all we can conclude about an artist who draws attractive women without many clothes is that the artist finds that content aesthetically pleasing. For that matter, artists have been portraying nudes for millenia, to (usually) relatively little controversy about their overall attitudes.<br /><br />You seem to feel strongly that this is a general case about drawing inference about an artist from their art, however. I'm going to pick an intentionally inflammatory example: can we draw any conclusions about an artist and/or writer whose core subject matter is the beating, rape, and murder of women, told/shown from the point of view of the murderer? Clearly we can't conclude that this artist is an actual rapist or murderer just because the depict these things in their work, but can't we conclude ... something?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-37581805785356811722012-03-06T20:35:40.102-08:002012-03-06T20:35:40.102-08:00Just to clarify after I re-read this, substitute &...Just to clarify after I re-read this, substitute "anti-Catholic/ANTI-CATHOLIC!", "homophobic/HOMOPHOBIC!", "greedy/GREEDY!", and so on above. I was less commenting on people who complain about sexism than about people who seem to always find their particular ox being gored regardless of what's going on.Pulp Herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486803457210325703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-64109455606431938092012-03-06T20:13:26.609-08:002012-03-06T20:13:26.609-08:00What if what women with talent want isn't exac...<i>What if what women with talent want isn't exactly the same as what people who like to complain about art want?</i><br /><br />Best line in the entire thing but the subtext reveals what I think is going on in 9 out of 10 of the "sexist" complaints (rising to 99 out of 10, no that's not a typo, when it is a "SEXIST!" complaint).<br /><br />There are a few games, btw, where we can see this at work. <i>Tunnels and Trolls</i> fifth edition, edited by Liz Danforth has a very different art feel not only from the 7th edition (and a much superior one at that) but to pretty much every other fantasy game I've owned. While there weren't a lot of naked or mostly naked women there were some down right sexy ones.<br /><br />As for the risks in doing this there is one I find interesting which I'll call prioritizing B'. It isn't so much prioritizing justice as wish fulfillment. This is what killed <i>Blue Rose</i> for me. It wasn't that the game had a gay, transgendered, poly, and lots of other sexualities friendly setting. It was that the main setting area was so relentlessness nice and perfect that I thought gaming there would be boring.<br /><br />If there is an offense in gaming (or other creative work) worse than being insensitive/injustice/racist/sexist/etc it is being boring, especially if the cause of boredom is a relentless refusal to risk the above list.Pulp Herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486803457210325703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-18512700248057101762012-03-05T06:53:44.041-08:002012-03-05T06:53:44.041-08:00His Osprey work is from the 80s or early 90s, isn&...His Osprey work is from the 80s or early 90s, isn't it?huthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16502682297320819595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-14375942895430366112012-03-03T09:19:15.446-08:002012-03-03T09:19:15.446-08:00Well I'm pretty fucking Marxy, no doubt. I am ...Well I'm pretty fucking Marxy, no doubt. I am using the terms "social justice" and "diversity" because when talking on the internet about these topics those are words the antiboob brigade recognizes.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-89178488117903297692012-03-03T06:51:01.064-08:002012-03-03T06:51:01.064-08:00The New Left took a lot from the Frankfurt School ...The New Left took a lot from the Frankfurt School cultural Marxists, though - especially Marcuse & Adorno. I take your point though that by now their views don't necessarily have all that much basis in classical Marxism. They all (New Left and classical Marxists) seem to get on well enough at my UK University, though! <br /><br />I find it hard talking with Americans especially, because many seem to adhere closely to New Left ideology while denying they are Marxist, or that their views have any relation to Marxism, or even Socialism. Many intelligent ones genuinely seem to believe this. I haven't seen it anywhere else in the world, although the Labour government here (1997-2010) did somewhat downplay the source of its ideology while engaging in its societal transformation program. Terms like Diversity and Social Justice seem to be useful for that.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-67785430656801355242012-03-01T20:05:43.601-08:002012-03-01T20:05:43.601-08:00@creases
You are a person with a different opinio...@creases<br /><br />You are a person with a different opinion who is willing to articulate that opinion at least a little which makes you far more interesting than a "random internet person".<br /><br />A "random internet person" is inarticulate and angry and dumb.<br /><br />At this point, it's simply frustrating, as there seem to be contradictions that I assume for you are not contradictions that I do not understand in enough detail to know why they aren't.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-82126853944783673402012-03-01T19:27:05.781-08:002012-03-01T19:27:05.781-08:00@Zak
Nah, like I said, I think it's fundament...@Zak<br /><br />Nah, like I said, I think it's fundamentally a "see it or not" kind of thing. There are no rules or criteria, just judgment calls all the way down. And I'm just some random internet person; you have people whose judgment you trust more than mine, of course.<br /><br />Hope you didn't find this conversation boring, at least, even if it didn't wind up going anywhere. See you around.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-12558007386252000432012-03-01T15:30:51.113-08:002012-03-01T15:30:51.113-08:00The osprey stuff seems to me like his worst work (...The osprey stuff seems to me like his worst work (and like he'e suppressing his own style) but I might be missing something.<br /><br />At any rate: I hope we can take it as a given that certain artists just are good at-/interested in- drawing certain things and we get good results when they are allowed to work their own magic.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-66818653834658005032012-03-01T15:27:53.189-08:002012-03-01T15:27:53.189-08:00Wayne Reynolds doesn't care about drawing men?...Wayne Reynolds doesn't care about drawing men? I dunno, some of his battle sequences for the various Osprey books about Samurai and naked Celts he's done over the years have been positively exuberant...Richard Balmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11859724233379453584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-62722426068875792062012-03-01T12:25:36.009-08:002012-03-01T12:25:36.009-08:00@creases
You seem to be having an excruciatingly ...@creases<br /><br />You seem to be having an excruciatingly hard time describing exactly what constitutes the line between sexualized and "insulting" with regard to imagery of women.<br /><br />If you figure out a way to describe it, let me know.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-10798517078645340782012-03-01T12:16:14.069-08:002012-03-01T12:16:14.069-08:00Sexy isn't my problem with the picture. Sexy s...Sexy isn't my problem with the picture. Sexy stuff is awesome, when it isn't *also* insulting. Even stuff that is sexy when it doesn't need to be.<br /><br />But we clearly don't have enough common ground to talk about it directly. So now I am bowing out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-89666291645691897552012-03-01T12:03:56.762-08:002012-03-01T12:03:56.762-08:00@Creases
I think you have made yourself clear:
I...@Creases<br /><br />I think you have made yourself clear:<br /><br />If you are an artist and draw gratuitously sexy women, this is an insulting action--like walking around punching the air.<br /><br />I think that's incredibly disturbing that you think that and I think it's sturprising I have someone that conservative in my audience, but ok.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-12828894172474038312012-03-01T11:58:01.415-08:002012-03-01T11:58:01.415-08:00@Zak
"Is that right? What am I missing?"...@Zak<br /><br />"Is that right? What am I missing?"<br /><br />It's possible the artist consciously or unconsciously thinks something bad. It's possible he consciously knows he's insulting women but doesn't care.<br /><br />What's missing is, first of all, even if it doesn't occur to him at all that his artwork is insulting, I think it *should* have. Hence my remark, upthread, about negligence. We're responsible for our omissions. My expectations as a consumer are not arcane or obscure, and even if they're not shared by everyone, they're not hard to anticipate and I don't think they set an unreasonably high barrier. It doesn't take a mind reader to say, "Someone might reasonably construe this as insulting. If that's not what I want, I should rethink this piece." If he can't do that for himself, it's probably a good idea for his art director to hire a diverse staff, so they can figure out what a broader cross section of people considers to be a reasonable expectation.<br /><br />I am all about negotiable standards, reasonable expectations, and taking responsibility for the implications of your actions.<br /><br />The second thing that's missing is, his intentions, and whatever personal attitude might have given rise to them, are not my problem. My problem is (what I construe to be) his insulting actions. I don't have to put up with being insulted, whether the artist "meant" for the work to be insulting or not. (Also, I don't have to put up with insults, whether I or anyone else is "hurt" by the insult or not.) So, if a product has something I construe as an insult in it, I don't buy it. Why would I?<br /><br />A creator who says, "I'm going to say whatever I want about whatever class of people I want, and if you take that personally, it's your own subjective feeling and solely your responsibility", is as far as I'm concerned, in the same category as the kid who says, "I'm just going to punch the air and walk in your direction, and if you get hit, it's your own fault for being in the way."<br /><br />I don't think I can make my view any clearer, so if you don't agree, then I guess we are probably done.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com