tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post5479451602407374704..comments2024-03-19T16:24:23.777-07:00Comments on Playing D&D With Porn Stars: My Advice To WOTC Now That 5e Has Been Rolled OutZak Sabbathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comBlogger90125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-53902114712307997942015-02-24T19:54:02.407-08:002015-02-24T19:54:02.407-08:00I'm pretty sure Games Workshop has the Tolkien...I'm pretty sure Games Workshop has the Tolkien game adaptation licenses and prying them away to make a D&D setting would be difficult. <br /><br />At any rate, after the 4e fiasco, Hasbro pissed away a lot of customer goodwill - my gaming group jumped ship to Pathfinder soon after its release (and as a longtime paladin player I've never looked back), and we're not alone; Paizo is in the running to be the market leader, if it isn't already (neither company releases sales data so its hard to say for sure). I thumbed through the 5e Player's Handbook and it looked interesting, but I don't think the whole club is going to change editions yet again after being burned by 4e. I don't have hard data on any broader trends, but I would be surprised if that was an uncommon sentiment. Renegade Paladinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05839701811321933501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-1917730665991388272015-01-04T17:39:55.496-08:002015-01-04T17:39:55.496-08:00GOOD! You finally demonstrated you could read.
Let...GOOD! You finally demonstrated you could read.<br />Let's take the next step:<br /><br />1. About letting new artists go crazy with the IP and showing those end results to studio. It's still not a good idea.<br /><br />Now Say Why Not. You haven't done that.<br /><br />2. "Why would Hasbro let them go all experimental again when that destroyed the prior company?"<br /><br />First: TSR never went experimental in this way (i.e. gambling on quality)<br /><br />Second: Here's why: because TSR had to make money to survive. WOTC, being part of HASBRO, only has to do what feeds the larger organism, as I explain in my earlier paragraph. Many conglomerates accept that small parts of them are not immediately profitable (or ever profitable). Hell: WOTC could profit off Magic and just break even onD&D and still be useful so long as Hasbro thought the IP would _one day_ be useful.<br /><br />Music companies do it all the time: they have huge hitmakers and then use the profit to fund Classical divisions which often operate at a loss for decades, but they keep it up because having the contracts has longer-term benefits.<br /><br />So your points were totally refuted.<br /><br />You need to address those things now or admit you were wrong.<br />Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-50337661278384352872015-01-04T17:25:50.796-08:002015-01-04T17:25:50.796-08:00I read it all. About letting new artists go crazy ...I read it all. About letting new artists go crazy with the IP and showing those end results to studio. It's still not a good idea.<br /><br />"Did you split the audience by creating 5 different lines of products? So what. You need to make compelling work"<br /><br />See, there's where you go completely off the rails. <br /><br />Wizards can't f*ck around with profitability. That's what sunk TSR. Why would Hasbro let them go all experimental again when that destroyed the prior company?<br /><br />Your idea makes absolutely no economic sense (or any other sense for that matter). <br /><br />And I'm tired of arguing with dicks on the Internet. My life is too short to spend time talking with people who are just jerks and are incapable of having a civil debate just because someone disagrees with them.<br /><br />I made my points. Your idea is entirely ridiculous and has no grounds in economic realities.Raging Owlbearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10556804177905125874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-77511875127174855002015-01-04T10:18:03.681-08:002015-01-04T10:18:03.681-08:00Of course there's a response--Mandy & I we...Of course there's a response--Mandy & I were inthe hospital.<br /><br />So, you missed this:<br /><br />TSR DID NOT carry out my plan--<br /><br />They did step one (branch out) and step two (do licensed properties) then there's a third step (the step you're apparently too stupid to remember or comment on--I guess because step one incenses you SOOO much it makes you forget what you just read)<br /><br />Let's test if you're actually able to read:<br /><br />Marty--After Step One (branch out) and step two (include licensed properties again)<br /><br />What<br /><br />Is <br /><br />Step<br /><br /><br />Three<br /><br />that I describe in my article?<br /><br />If you can correctly identify it then we'll have established you are actually reading and I can move on and handle the rest--including why insulting you casually after you repeatedly dodge the question is different than an ad hominem argument.<br /><br />So answer the question.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-24623808724766891062015-01-04T07:22:45.027-08:002015-01-04T07:22:45.027-08:00What?
No
pithy
response
with
extra
line bre...What?<br /><br />No<br /><br />pithy<br /><br />response<br /><br />with <br /><br />extra<br /><br />line breaks<br /><br />to<br /><br />make<br /><br />yourself<br /><br />look <br /><br />smugly <br /><br />superior?<br /><br />(which only makes you look like a bigger ass, by the way).Raging Owlbearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10556804177905125874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-65497296731703308882015-01-03T18:58:33.910-08:002015-01-03T18:58:33.910-08:00Agree in general with the article. I think WotC h...Agree in general with the article. I think WotC has already whiffed at one strike, though, by not learning from Paizo and having a strong roster of iconic characters with 5e. The branding and cross-product appeal of Pathfinder is driven by those characters as much if not more than their game world - they appear in the rule books, adventure illustrations, star in the comics and other adaptations they do (like the audio-dramas of Rise of the Runelords)... Or even a general monster, like the much-loved goblins that fuel stuffed animals, etc. for Paizo. Their new first out of the gate AP features kobolds but not at all memorably, just as faceless sword-fodder.<br /><br />The only "name" people they tap are villains. So they trot Tiamat out for the new adventures at least, but haven't shown a lot of savvy with that in movies etc. in the past - instead of squaring off against Strahd or Bargle they just make up purple-lipped goons. <br /><br />A successful cross-market strategy in areas where Hasbro would actually care about making money - toys/movies/tchotchkes - needs something *visually* striking to hook into. Maybe "that's coming later" but why would you bury the lede?<br /><br />Anyway, I'd like to see them succeed at this but I'm not sure they are positioned in a way to head that direction ATM.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-76533408391719476972015-01-03T15:28:07.351-08:002015-01-03T15:28:07.351-08:00Here's the irony. TSR already did this with D...Here's the irony. TSR already did this with D&D and it basically put them out of business. They had so many D&D campaign settings, it ruined the company and allowed Wizards of the Coast to purchase TSR.<br /><br />Let's list a few of them and see how many were on your list:<br /><br />Pelinore - AD&D King Arthur setting<br />Birthright - Chivalry & Sorcery style kingdom-building campaign setting<br />Lankmar - Yes, there already was an AD&D Lankmar setting with Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser<br />Al-Qadim - Arabian Nights<br />Ravenloft - Horror<br />Masque of Red Death - Victorian era horror<br />Spelljammer - D&D in Astral Space<br />Planescape - Multiverse D&D<br />Dark Sun - Desert planet<br />The Horde - Mongol barbarian setting in the Forgotten Realms<br />Maztica - MesoAmerican (Aztec/Mayan) D&D<br />Rokugan - Oriental Adventures meets Legend of the Five Rings<br /><br />You know what all these settings had in common? They completely failed to sell well and put TSR out of business.<br /><br />And you are suggesting WotC do the SAME THING with 5th Edition.<br /><br />You have no idea what you are talking about and you don't even bother to research the history of D&D before you spout off like you know everything.Raging Owlbearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10556804177905125874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-4796090834259225302015-01-03T15:08:29.876-08:002015-01-03T15:08:29.876-08:00Nice ad hominem -- the tactic of a debater who has...Nice ad hominem -- the tactic of a debater who has no argument on which to stand.<br /><br />You have utterly failed to show how your "great idea" would do anything to amplify the brand value. <br /><br />Just because your idea sucks, doesn't make me stupid.<br /> Raging Owlbearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10556804177905125874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-30448393197761707232015-01-02T12:35:21.258-08:002015-01-02T12:35:21.258-08:00That's not a response, Marty.
I explained how...That's not a response, Marty.<br /><br />I explained how expanding into King Arthur or Wuxia doesn't help sell the brand identity but is the first step in a process you failed to comment on, instead going on a tangent/<br /><br />So comment on what I said now or else type:<br /><br />"I am sorry, I--Marty Walser--am stupid and should not have bothered you"Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-17148263570374054672015-01-02T12:14:50.549-08:002015-01-02T12:14:50.549-08:00You should do the same.You should do the same.Raging Owlbearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10556804177905125874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-88821292558898686742015-01-02T12:13:54.223-08:002015-01-02T12:13:54.223-08:00"Creating Wuxia D&D or King Arthur D&..."Creating Wuxia D&D or King Arthur D&D doesn't help sell the brand as a movie identity."<br /><br />Really: <br /><br />READ<br /><br />THE<br /><br />THING<br /><br />BEFORE<br /><br />YOU <br /><br />COMMENTZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-3974844282469512602015-01-02T12:13:13.108-08:002015-01-02T12:13:13.108-08:00You didn't read what I wrote or address it.
Y...You didn't read what I wrote or address it.<br /><br />You skipped the steps again.<br /><br />Please do not respond based on shit you half read while drunk.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-73008572900077809262015-01-02T12:07:54.561-08:002015-01-02T12:07:54.561-08:00The problem with your idea is that adding new genr...The problem with your idea is that adding new genres to D&D does nothing to add to its value as a fantasy IP. D&D is already the established brand in fantasy RPGs. Creating Wuxia D&D or King Arthur D&D doesn't help sell the brand as a movie identity. <br /><br />You need a story to sell a movie franchise -- Harry Potter, The Hobbit, Dune, Hunger Games, Da Vinci Code. Do you see the pattern? You don't sell genres to Hollywood. You sell stories. Novels that can be easily transformed into screen plays. And your IP is even more valuable if you have a whole series of books that can be turned into a movie franchise rather than a single film.<br /><br />Dragonlance is that franchise... Perhaps other FR novels (although there are few that are as well known). You can't do Drizzt because you have the problem that [literal] "black people" are all bad guys. Raging Owlbearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10556804177905125874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-14132356014417754342015-01-02T12:01:23.150-08:002015-01-02T12:01:23.150-08:00"Here's the thing you failed to establish..."Here's the thing you failed to establish. How would creating more genres of D&D add to its IP credability?"<br /><br />GOOD QUESTION!<br /><br />That's why I wrote a post about it!<br /><br />To recap the post you're allegedly commenting on:<br /><br />(It's multi-step so try to pay attention_all the way through_, Marty)<br /><br />Creating something new would convince a segment of the INTERNAL WOTC audience that remains unconvinced that WOTC is dedicated to doing something new. It would NOT improve the value of the IP in Hollywood on its own.<br /><br />However, then AFTER you've proven to the internal audience that WOTC is capable of doing new things (or just, really, any surprising things) THEN there's a next step.<br /><br />What's the next step? Now that both the previously-convinced AND currently-unconvinced audiences are paying attention, WOTC then puts out new products that _are of higher quality than what they usually do_ .<br /><br />These (as I said above)<br />do<br /><br /><br />not<br /><br /><br />have<br /><br /><br />to<br /><br />be<br /><br />wholly new properties--they can be based on the old D&D IP, only totally earnestly written and graphic designed for once. By people with talent.<br /><br />Note: EVEN THIS step will not improve the value of the brand. Because even if they are successful in doing that, the internal audience isn't Hollywood.<br /><br />However then a THIRD thing happens: because the WOTC product is both new and good, people start to talk about it--even ones outside the industry. Like how Mikal Gilmore started writing about comics for Rolling Stone once they started doing new and exciting things in the 80s.<br /><br />THIS--the buzz around the new classics, improves the value of the IP and overcomes the many money problems.<br /><br />Now:<br /><br />Address that argument.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-22963385114347168652015-01-02T11:53:23.365-08:002015-01-02T11:53:23.365-08:00On top of all that, Sweetpea has damaged the D&...On top of all that, Sweetpea has damaged the D&D movie brand.<br /><br />I'm saying the D&D rights are very valuable. The IP is very valuable, as is, even with the damaged reputation.<br /><br />But as a movie executive, it's also a gigantic gamble to pursue right now until the rights are settled between Hasbro and Sweetpea.<br /><br />This is why no one has pursued it enough to make a LotR-sized epic. It the sheer volume of money that would be required to make sure a movie that makes D&D a hard sell.<br /><br />Adding more genres to D&D does nothing to solve that problem.<br /><br />The resolution of the Warner-Hasbro case will go a very long way toward solving that problem if Hasbro wins. If Warner wins then we're still guaranteed to have shitty D&D movies for a long time to come.Raging Owlbearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10556804177905125874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-5574428455126247092015-01-02T11:46:41.115-08:002015-01-02T11:46:41.115-08:00So, if I'm a movie studio here's what I kn...So, if I'm a movie studio here's what I know about D&D:<br /><br />1) I could pay Solomon a crap ton of money, but that doesn't even guarantee I will be allowed to make the film.<br /><br />2) It's going to take at least $200 million to make a film on par with a Hobbit/LotR movie. If I start production on a film to which I may not even have rights, I'm now committing hundreds of millions of dollars to buy a lottery ticket that I'm not even certain will pay off. What insane movie executive would agree to that? Industry executives get fired for decisions like that.<br /><br />3) Even if I commit to that massive gamble, I don't yet have a story to tell. I either need to option the rights for a D&D Novel (which would be impossible because Hasbro would not allow that), or I have to hire someone to write a completely new story.<br /><br />4) If I can completely write a new story, why not just do that and take a chance that I can sell "generic fantasy story #409" without the D&D brand attached? Or better yet, find another fantasy author to which I can option the rights and forget D&D for now? Why not work directly with Robert Jordan's estate? Or Frtiz Leiber's? Or Robin Hobb? There are probably dozens of fantasy authors pining for a movie deal.<br /><br />Here's the thing you failed to establish. <br /><br />How would creating more genres of D&D add to its IP credability? You need a story to sell. D&D is already THE brand for heroic fantasy RPGs. Adding Wuxia or King Arthur or Space Cowboys doesn't do shit for me as a movie producer. Just because that's what *you* want Wizards to do with it's product line, doesn't make it a good idea... and it's an entirely the wrong idea for selling D&D as the fantasy brand because you would be watering down the brand with things that D&D ** is not **. Raging Owlbearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10556804177905125874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-74805833882256385262015-01-02T11:46:26.025-08:002015-01-02T11:46:26.025-08:00Baloney. The IP for D&D is valuable, but that ...Baloney. The IP for D&D is valuable, but that is not all there is to consider about making a successful movie franchise. You make it sound like it's as easy as striking a check. It's not. Movie rights are a very complicated beast and knowing that you are going to profit from a movie or not is seldom a sure thing.<br /><br />Here's why no one has had the desire/ability to "buy their way out" of the deal.<br /><br />Money. Lots and lots of it.<br /><br />D&D is not Lord of the Rings. It does not have a decades-old set of novels that define a cultural movement, like LotR defined the fantasy genre in literature. You can't create that kind of IP value out of the air. D&D created the fantasy RPG culture, but it doesn't really have a touchstone story (unless you consider something like Dragonlance).<br /><br />Keep in mind that it took almost 20 years to get the Hobbit made into a live action movie. Jackson first pitched making the Hobbit in 1995 prior to Lord of the Rings, but the dispute over the production rights versus the distribution rights led him to abanondon that idea and pursue the Lord of the Rings instead. It was only after Lords of the Rings was so successful that all the parties tied up in the Hobbit dispute finally decided they would make more money cooperating than by litigating and settled the deal.<br /><br />20 years.<br /><br />The D&D rights are tied up in the Sweetpea contract. Courtney Solomon is not interested in selling them if he is able to option those rights every few years for chunks of cash (i.e. - the Warner deal). Why would he sell those rights back to Hasbro? Those rights could be worth shit-tons of money to him over the long haul. It would be like emptying your 401K now. You'd be selling off your future for a little bit of cashn in the present. Solomon may not be a good movie maker, but he's not stupid. <br /><br />The reason no one has offered (with the exception of Warner, up to now), is that making a D&D movie is a huge gamble. Between the cost for production and the cost of litigation without guarantee that you'd even have a success, why as a movie studio would you take that chance?<br /><br />First, you have to offer Solomon lots of money for the rights to make the film. But you still have no story, script or possibly even the true rights to make the film without involving the lawyers. This is what Hasbro is counting on. If the rights revert to Hasbro, they can shop the D&D name around, but they sure as hell are not going to pay Solomon a crap-load of money just to get their own brand back when they can use the lawyers to do it instead (or try to force him to settle the rights out of court, which is what they're likely hoping given that the case is not necessarily a slam dunk in their favor).<br /><br />(continues)Raging Owlbearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10556804177905125874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-76777824689897653952015-01-01T21:14:47.179-08:002015-01-01T21:14:47.179-08:00You claimed a cause and effect and can't prove...You claimed a cause and effect and can't prove it.<br /><br />None of your infodumps prove your point.<br /><br />If someone valued the D&D property as much as they did other properties, they'd buy their way COMPLETELY out of any legal problem surrounding it.<br /><br />They don't value it that much, so they have not.<br /><br />You next answer must _address that point_ (you need not agree, but you must state your position on it and then give reasons why you think it's true or false).Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-5449819948230782632015-01-01T21:06:06.702-08:002015-01-01T21:06:06.702-08:00You didn't read all of the news. The Warner de...You didn't read all of the news. The Warner deal puts Courtney Solomon as the Executive Producer. So, if Warner wins the case, Soloman will make another shit-tastic movie.<br /><br />You seem to have a fatal inability to admit you don't know what you are talking about here as you haven't read up on any of the D&D movie history.Raging Owlbearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10556804177905125874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-73471031641667947852015-01-01T21:03:32.518-08:002015-01-01T21:03:32.518-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Raging Owlbearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10556804177905125874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-78976247851792934542014-12-29T09:40:07.835-08:002014-12-29T09:40:07.835-08:00I liked your ideas Zak, but I kept thinking "...I liked your ideas Zak, but I kept thinking "Why does this sound vaguely familiar". Couldn't think of it, but kept stewing on it. <br /><br />Then, I remembered Dragon 274 (the first 3e issue). They dedicate several pages to a Robin Hood 'campaign setting'. It's not particularly well written or even very interesting. But It was public domain and certainly a classic. But, the same issue dedicated at least as many pages to promoting the first D&D movie. <br /><br />In a sense, it is an ass-backward, poorly executed, and jumbled attempt at the tasks you advise. It was almost as if someone back then said "Guys, here's what we should do..(read Zak's advice)", and then Wizco and related companies did it in the most confused and sloppy manner imaginable. Jeremyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05744547048757312772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-65230400785911367562014-12-26T11:23:49.539-08:002014-12-26T11:23:49.539-08:00This is fantastic.
Is it possible for WOTC to ma...This is fantastic. <br /><br />Is it possible for WOTC to make Intellectual Property from the Creative Process that D&D Nurtures and then profit from that? In other words, rather than making a D'riZZZZZt movie, can we make a PD&DwPS type movie in which real people interact with a fantasy world in a meaningful ways--Gamers & other web stuff has done this & I think it is fairly successful and a relative newish genre which may be ripe for creative exploration in a way that a Dr'ZZZt movie is not...David Given Schwarmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09106539582570204636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-32887996698975294162014-12-25T11:45:03.546-08:002014-12-25T11:45:03.546-08:00nothing, it was a mistake nothing, it was a mistake Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-20364108991287041682014-12-25T11:00:46.933-08:002014-12-25T11:00:46.933-08:00To play devil's advocate Marty, did they not h...To play devil's advocate Marty, did they not have that before? That is, if it hasn't 'gone mainstream' yet, and I see new people playing all the time, does it need to go mainstream to find more players, or does it just need to reach its target audience of creative, nerdy types with a bit of disposable income?<br /><br />It's like the old Richard Pryor bit, "They say drugs are addictive. I know people who've been doing drugs for 25 years. They ain't addicted yet."<br /><br />I've been gaming for 37 years. If it needs to go mainstream, and it hasn't so far, where have all my new players been coming from?Adam Dicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04840144928096089178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-54691853597545091342014-12-25T09:12:55.511-08:002014-12-25T09:12:55.511-08:00Why go with Camelot when you can go with Camelot 3...Why go with Camelot when you can go with Camelot 3000 ? Huh, well, don't answer that. But still I'd like that.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelot_3000Kobayashihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13940436278716969002noreply@blogger.com