tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post5330261294473728172..comments2024-03-19T16:24:23.777-07:00Comments on Playing D&D With Porn Stars: Hi, You're WrongZak Sabbathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-64940846143656818252010-03-11T13:46:56.999-08:002010-03-11T13:46:56.999-08:00(I can’t help thinking of these folks as Robin Wil...<i>(I can’t help thinking of these folks as Robin Williams in Hook, finding his inner child by throwing food and ‘never growing up.’)</i><br /><br />If the hypocritical bigotry evident in this sort of name calling is the mark of maturity, I think I'll happily hold on to my childish pursuits for as long as I am able.<br /><br />Throwing food at friends, rather then hurling insults towards people I've never met, seems a much more productive way spend my time.FuriousDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06593831395664210540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-66306764394410617472010-03-06T12:32:34.560-08:002010-03-06T12:32:34.560-08:00I assume this was because he thought it might'...<i>I assume this was because he thought it might've started a conversation (perhaps with other commenters) he didn't feel like hosting on his blog.</i><br /><br>Just so. With a couple of specific exceptions, other than spam (which is becoming more common of late) I only delete posts I think would lead to unwanted acrimony in the comments. I catch enough flak as it is for saying stuff as innocuous as "The weather is cool today and I like it like that" without allowing free-roaming digressions into religion, politics, or the eternal Dick Sargent vs. Dick York debate.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-73965154087803224822010-03-06T00:02:12.465-08:002010-03-06T00:02:12.465-08:00Okay, that's all I wanted to know. Sorry for t...Okay, that's all I wanted to know. Sorry for troubling you.Charlie Bottomshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15290680258128247305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-58146395906013480782010-03-05T23:59:37.316-08:002010-03-05T23:59:37.316-08:00Charles-
On Christmas Day, James M posted "Me...Charles-<br />On Christmas Day, James M posted "Merry Christmas!". I posted a comment that said "Hail Satan!". He deleted it.<br /><br />I assume this was because he thought it might've started a conversation (perhaps with other commenters) he didn't feel like hosting on his blog.<br /><br />I respected that, 'cause hey--it's his blog.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-47965710332530063832010-03-05T22:41:48.939-08:002010-03-05T22:41:48.939-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Charlie Bottomshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15290680258128247305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-14628119842864830192010-03-05T14:32:23.860-08:002010-03-05T14:32:23.860-08:00personal, obviously, but that doesn't seem off...<i>personal, obviously, but that doesn't seem off-limits given the personal nature of fellas' discussions on this topic</i><br /><br />The difference is that if someone wants to tell a personal story about what the game means to them, that's okay, because it's their story and their choice to tell it. They don't get that choice when you decide to make a personal comment about them, and that's not okay.<br /><br />I'm not sure why this has to be explained.thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-53426660840919461652010-03-04T16:07:33.574-08:002010-03-04T16:07:33.574-08:00This blog isn't about self-promotion. I get en...This blog isn't about self-promotion. I get enough of that at work.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-89881229846330663712010-03-04T15:49:52.801-08:002010-03-04T15:49:52.801-08:00Hey, I never knew you were an artist!
You should ...Hey, I never knew you were an artist!<br /><br />You should link to your other site from this blog. People are missing out!Akiyamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01002160797943960637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-76371065178737479642010-03-04T13:36:21.584-08:002010-03-04T13:36:21.584-08:00Wally-
I can't speak for anybody else, but I&...Wally-<br /><br />I can't speak for anybody else, but I'm not interested in nostalgia and don't think of my childhood as having been all that fun compared to shit I get to do now. My games are about having fun now doing things that I like to do now.<br /><br />Anyway--you don't get to "speculate". It's just another word for "assume".<br /><br />Plus, you don't need to--eveyrone you're talking smack about is right here and you can ask them.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-21879499053115538172010-03-04T13:29:00.245-08:002010-03-04T13:29:00.245-08:00"Offensive, apparently, and I'm sorry to ..."Offensive, apparently, and I'm sorry to have given offense; personal, obviously, but that doesn't seem off-limits given the personal nature of fellas' discussions on this topic - which is after all about pining for the past and so forth."<br /><br />This reads: It's okay if I'm offensive and make personal attacks because you guys take a personal interest in this stuff.<br /><br />Which makes no fucking sense whatsoever.Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17285645317925993821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-44023806180746336832010-03-04T12:36:55.342-08:002010-03-04T12:36:55.342-08:00The rest of your argument--that's you and some...<em>The rest of your argument--that's you and someone else arguing about a phenomenon that I don't care either way about it.</em><br /><br />Believe me, brother, I'm doing my best to reach the same point.<br /><br /><em>"I can’t help thinking of these folks as Robin Williams in Hook, finding his inner child by throwing food and ‘never growing up.’"<br /><br />...this is offensive. This is indefensible. This is you making personal remarks about someone based on the type of game they play.</em><br /><br />Offensive, apparently, and I'm sorry to have given offense; personal, obviously, but that doesn't seem off-limits given the personal nature of fellas' discussions on this topic - which is after all about pining for the past and so forth.<br /><br />As for 'indefensible,' it doesn't seem too wild a speculation about the dynamics and ritual practices of a subculture, and it's relatively mild, all things considered. It's nowhere near as mean-spirited or coarse as the shit that regularly appears on various OSR blogs.<br /><br />[I wrote a bunch more, then read an earlier post of yours and realized where I knew your name from, and deleted what I'd written because I was forced to confront how very little I care about this topic, in the long run, compared to other things..)<br /><br />You're <em>that</em> Zak Smith? Thanks for that project. (You can guess which one.) It's awesome, and filled me with some serious OSR-style nostalgia for reading Pynchon in college.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-54689695289588087692010-03-04T11:28:28.472-08:002010-03-04T11:28:28.472-08:00Wally--
The rest of your argument--that's you ...Wally--<br />The rest of your argument--that's you and someone else arguing about a phenomenon that I don't care either way about it.<br /><br />Here's MY point--you said this:<br /><br />"You I can’t help thinking of these folks as Robin Williams in Hook, finding his inner child by throwing food and ‘never growing up.’<br /><br />...this is offensive. This is indefensible. This is you making personal remarks about someone based on the type of game they play.<br /><br />This is absolutely inexcusable. this is what prompted all this. You are not allowed to do this to other people--especially ones you've never met.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-78426913857591799952010-03-04T11:23:14.213-08:002010-03-04T11:23:14.213-08:00Wally--
""The main points of the game a...Wally--<br /><br />""The main points of the game are: hanging out with your friends, inventing strange things, and problem-solving--all of which are maturity-scalable activities."<br /><br />"You'd be right on the money if it wasn't an article of faith and obsessive refrain in the OSR that these are not in fact features of modern adventure gaming,"<br /><br />If you think that, you're mising something when you read all those play reports.<br /><br />But right here, I'll say it:<br /><br />I roll Old School and these are the main features of MY game.<br /><br />Go over to James Mal and ask him if he feels the same.<br /><br />Go ask him.<br /><br />Go ask him.<br /><br />Your argument is meaningless until you ask him.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-69374532736829659492010-03-04T10:49:41.629-08:002010-03-04T10:49:41.629-08:00"...crippled by awkward nomenclature and over..."...crippled by awkward nomenclature and overly precious word choices that call attention to themselves rather than serving the narrative"<br /><br />That's part of the joke; the word game he is playing with the reader. Vance does not always write like that but if you "get" the joke, it's great fun when he does.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-91335269434387055142010-03-04T10:13:08.534-08:002010-03-04T10:13:08.534-08:00Ignore the haters, Zak. I'm a 40 yo guy with ...Ignore the haters, Zak. I'm a 40 yo guy with all the bills and troubles that implies. My friends and I have been playing all kinds of RPG's since high school. We do it as an escape from the hectic trouble of every day life. For a few hours every week, we put all the BS of real life aside, drink beer, and focus on the problems of a fantasy world. It's nice to know that we're not the only "adults" out there enjoying this method of relaxation. Keep up the Blog. I feel like less of a geek knowing you're out there enjoying the same thing.Wolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06604453860952321066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-90517325067919437812010-03-04T09:49:59.456-08:002010-03-04T09:49:59.456-08:00Re: Charlie Bottoms
Excerpts taken out of context...Re: Charlie Bottoms<br /><br />Excerpts taken out of context won't serve you as well as looking at a complete text. Try 'Eyes of the Overworld' or 'The Last Castle'.Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17285645317925993821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-24831616662094782732010-03-04T09:38:28.754-08:002010-03-04T09:38:28.754-08:00Not having read Jack Vance, would it be possible t...Not having read Jack Vance, would it be possible to ask for an example of a particularly well-turned paragraph, or perhaps a recommended starting point into his oeuvre?<br /><br />Even the examples in the highly complimentary article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/magazine/19Vance-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2<br /><br />are crippled by awkward nomenclature and overly precious word choices that call attention to themselves rather than serving the narrative. The article brings to mind Harlan Ellison and Trevanian/Rod Whitaker, strong genre stylists like Vance, whose experiences growing up during the depression seems to have inspired the same sort of mild misanthropy and genre-philia (genre myopia?) that the article writer ascribes to Vance.<br /><br />At worst, I've found passages like this one:<br /><br />"Jubal climbed down the slope to the rock-slide. He rolled a stone into the sling. The line remained slack. Jubal looked up the slope. The Djan were listening, graceful heads raised. Jubal also listened. From far away sounded a curious pulsing whine. Jubal looked around the sky but mist obscured the view. The sound dwindled to nothing."<br /><br />which do appear to back up Faustus' claims of the "15 year old creative writing story - sloppy use of commas to join disparate ideas, short sentences to add to the breathless prose style".<br /><br />Overall, I can't find anything even remotely close to the level of a Nabokov; and Vance's more baroque/mannered passages, which the article singles out as his best, seem less vibrant and graceful than Steven Brust's work in a similar style (in his "Khaavren Romances"). So the question is, what am I missing?Charlie Bottomshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15290680258128247305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-12598605712549604262010-03-04T09:07:53.577-08:002010-03-04T09:07:53.577-08:00"The main points of the game are: hanging out..."The main points of the game are: hanging out with your friends, inventing strange things, and problem-solving--all of which are maturity-scalable activities."<br /><br />Well put. I haven't posted here before, so I just want to say I really reading enjoy your blog, Zak.<br /><br />I think there's four seperate things going on in the old-school movement:<br /><br />Nostalgia.<br /><br />A preference for low-power fantasy games, as opposed to superheroic ones.<br /><br />A preference for simple rules.<br /><br />And a desire to include more creativity, atmosphere, roleplaying, problem-solving and player-choice in fantasy games, and take them away from fantasy-fiction cliches and hack'n'slash railroads.<br /><br />Now, there is some overlap between these four things. Old-school games are old, more low-powered, and have simpler rules that encourage different play-styles. This overlap is the reason why there is an old-school movement. But there is no *necessary* connection between them - I know from experience that there are people who like to play through 3e modules and story-paths while using retro-clone rules, for example. Identifying with one aspect of the old-school movement doesn't mean one has to sign up to the whole package. <br /><br />Also, "creativity", "atmosphere", "roleplaying""problem-solving" and "player-choice" can mean different things to different people. For example, for one DM "more atmosphere" might lead to grittily realistic low-fantasy, while for another it results in anything-goes science-fantasy.<br /><br />So the old-school movement attracts a lot of different people. It's a very broad, diverse movement with fuzzy edges. <br /><br />As for the original criticisms of old-school play, well, I'm sure there are people playing old-school games whose games are just power-fantasies without any type of depth, but I can't personally see any evidence of that in the old-school blogs I read. Quite the opposite. And, in my experience, following a story-path written for you by someone else (be that the DM or a games company) does not on its own add any depth to the game or encourage roleplaying. Depth requires players to be engaged in what's going on, and player-engagement means players making meaningful choices and become the heroes of *their own* stories.Akiyamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01002160797943960637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-33412839524873307022010-03-04T08:09:40.158-08:002010-03-04T08:09:40.158-08:00High comedy, this! Maybe I'm an emotionally s...High comedy, this! Maybe I'm an emotionally stunted alcoholic, but I'd rather play D&D at 1AM with KK and beer than LARP around with Wally and his stories. That's just me though.<br /><br />Party on, indie vampire nerds!SirAllenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11106665195318475302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-69767437034643580682010-03-04T07:39:52.613-08:002010-03-04T07:39:52.613-08:00I was going to comment...but honestly I have no id...I was going to comment...but honestly I have no idea where to begin. What I'm getting is the most intelligent conversation possible on the subject of "is not" / "is too!"<br /><br />Having had a 'story' in my games since my friend first ran one for me in '77 when I was 8, I don't see gaming one way or the other as seperate entities as most people seem to. Your modules don't have stories. Ok. Not for me but that's cool. My stories only barely use traditional 'adventure design' but I doubt you'd notice. You think my 'stories' are no more than childish flights of fantasy. As you wish.<br /><br />Granted, someone might look at my game(s) and say, "Now Adam, you run 'this style' of game". I will say, "Ah really. How interesting", but in truth I'll likely not give a crap.<br /><br />I play table top rpgs as a hobby. That means I play games. Sometimes I feel not enough of us step back and laugh about that simple fact.<br /><br />You can analyze that if you like but unless analyzing it is fun for you my recommendation is to sit down at a table and play.Adam Dicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04840144928096089178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-63021830954493138442010-03-04T06:49:08.746-08:002010-03-04T06:49:08.746-08:00You know, I was going to make a long post about OS...You know, I was going to make a long post about OSR and Forge being two sides to the same coin when it comes to their rhetoric, but I've decided I'm not.<br /><br />What I am going to say is, "If you're having fun playing the game you're playing, you're doing it right. No exceptions."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-34986948118254186192010-03-04T05:04:48.535-08:002010-03-04T05:04:48.535-08:00faustusnotes sez:
"But again, when the OSR d...faustusnotes sez:<br /><br />"But again, when the OSR decided to return to their 80s roots, they also returned to that wargaming style, and they associate (probably in some cases blame) the other styles with later game editions - not with, as is probably more likely, the maturation and diversification of a gaming crowd that was largely teenage when the hobby first developed."<br /><br />This brings up a related point: the rise of the 'story game' and the (let's simplistically say) post-<em>Ravenloft</em> obsession with structured RPG narrative is not a corporate imposition, nor did some separate 'designer class' (or god help us 'theorists'!!) impose these games and styles on the world. The various 'new school' styles were demanded, designed, built, bought, and played by gamers. Maybe this is a 'careful what you wish for' thing, but there's a level of self-fictionalization in the OSR blogosphere at times, presenting 'grognards' as defenders against the loss of some precious essence...which so many gamers have been happy to give up in exchange for an experience that must, for them, have some value. The absolutist claim that it does not - and can not - is something faustusnotes and I seem to be objecting to.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-67727208865995193142010-03-04T04:41:12.713-08:002010-03-04T04:41:12.713-08:00I'm the commenter in question.
1) I disagree ...I'm the commenter in question.<br /><br />1) I disagree about Vance (comparing his prose to Nabokov's is silly unless you actually think their use of language has the same <em>purpose</em>) but there's no point discussing that here.<br /><br />2) As faustusnotes pointed out, this is intelligent and irrelevant:<br /><br />"The main points of the game are: hanging out with your friends, inventing strange things, and problem-solving--all of which are maturity-scalable activities."<br /><br />You'd be right on the money if it wasn't an article of faith and obsessive refrain in the OSR that these are <em>not</em> in fact features of modern adventure gaming, that the real point of D&D is a specific kind of pulp-narrative emulation, etc. If you're right about the 'main points' of the game then your Paizo Adventure Path fun should be isomorphic to your Precious Sandbox Play fun.<br /><br />So though I agree with you as far as your initial post goes, I think it's an inadequate response to the sort of rhetoric you see all the time at Grognardia and throughout the 'OSR' blogosphere.<br /><br />As for whether we're talking about 'psychology,' I suggest your commenters reread my comment - which is a response to Maliszewski's intensely personal post about his own psychology, but which only talks about the formal features of emergent 'dungeon crawl' narratives. Since nostalgist OSR play is in a literal sense about adolescence and recapturing memory, I'm curious as to what's so wrong.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-30560805271322739542010-03-04T03:53:24.398-08:002010-03-04T03:53:24.398-08:00Zak, just ignore faustus. I've been reading a...Zak, just ignore faustus. I've been reading a lot of blogs lately, and he appears to be trolling all of them.<br /><br />But I do think the "judgemental" comment is funny, coming from someone who just "judged" Vance's writing style. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-36660716041126260342010-03-03T21:35:23.210-08:002010-03-03T21:35:23.210-08:00"I've never told anyone that I know about..."I've never told anyone that I know about their inner psychology based on the kind of game they play."<br /><br />I, however, have no compunctions. I've been taking notes in my armchair all night! :-)Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17285645317925993821noreply@blogger.com