tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post3940088918984194330..comments2024-02-29T00:47:06.191-08:00Comments on Playing D&D With Porn Stars: StoryGame Design is (Often) The Opposite of OSR DesignZak Sabbathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-1681814457267177992017-09-17T23:57:39.732-07:002017-09-17T23:57:39.732-07:00either you hold to 'innocent until proven guil...either you hold to 'innocent until proven guilty' or you are, objectively, a bad person.<br /><br />so: defend your desire to not hold that standard or apologize.<br /><br />also: you can't "troll" with an honest opinion stated honestly. so you are mistaken or lying<br /><br />you must address these 2 points or be banned Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-35298447792455487342017-09-17T23:33:26.019-07:002017-09-17T23:33:26.019-07:00Ok, every new comment of that linked thread makes ...Ok, every new comment of that linked thread makes you look more and more like a jerk. The only harasser and troll I see in that thread is you.Joaquin Ollohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03895238102654072360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-57134181655768923322017-09-17T23:19:38.950-07:002017-09-17T23:19:38.950-07:00Zak, that link you posted doesn't make you loo...Zak, that link you posted doesn't make you look very good. 3 pages into it and found no abusers' comments, only you putting so much passion and effort into derailing the most plausible interpretation of Holmes' narration and making an otherwise civilized discussion a muddy zone.Joaquin Ollohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03895238102654072360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-3933594282062878502017-09-14T00:37:51.924-07:002017-09-14T00:37:51.924-07:00"Please think harder before leaving comments...."Please think harder before leaving comments." I always do. <br /><br />I was wondering if you knew something that I didn't. Now I'm sure. Asking directly is the best way, don't you think? <br /><br />Whatever, thank you for your cooperation. :)anonimous, emperador en el exiliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13204169087393199959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-15022510925937085292017-09-07T02:55:49.586-07:002017-09-07T02:55:49.586-07:00"
Rolemaster is a no-brainer. I played it onc..."<br />Rolemaster is a no-brainer. I played it once: every player choose the weapon which his PC was more skilled at, and called it a day. Where are the tactics in this? "<br /><br />Matching the weapon to the specific foe and situation.<br /><br />You don't use a lance at 3 feet away.<br /><br />Please think harder before leaving comments.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-71546691942575299022017-09-07T02:48:15.063-07:002017-09-07T02:48:15.063-07:00"Read through that a few times if it confuses..."Read through that a few times if it confuses you."<br /><br />The more I read it, the more confused I feel.<br /><br />"The reason there's lots of different sheets for each weapon is to make choosing a different weapon interesting tactically."<br /><br />But this doesn't work. Don't you know?<br /><br />Rolemaster is a no-brainer. I played it once: every player choose the weapon which his PC was more skilled at, and called it a day. Where are the tactics in this? <br /><br />Moreover, the decision was so obvious that the Game Master -who was a wise guy, god bless him- didn't even bother to ask us.<br /><br />Rock-scissors-paper, with only three weapons, manages to be tactically more deep than Rolemaster zillion of arms. I'll repeat it: for game, I mean, for TACTICAL purposes, it seems a waste of good ink and paper.<br />anonimous, emperador en el exiliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13204169087393199959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-31976252905058410082017-08-23T11:34:01.133-07:002017-08-23T11:34:01.133-07:00It doesn't matter how many pieces of paper are...It doesn't matter how many pieces of paper are involved.<br /><br />Unless the point of the exercise is to SIMULATE it is not simulationism.<br /><br />The reason there's lots of different sheets for each weapon is to make choosing a different weapon interesting tactically, not to simulate.<br /><br />Read through that a few times if it confuses you.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-46589559566557216462017-08-23T10:57:25.894-07:002017-08-23T10:57:25.894-07:00What I don't get about "Rolemaster" ...What I don't get about "Rolemaster" has nothing to do with goblins trading olive oil. I don't get what's the point of having a separate damage table for every weapon... there are like, maybe one hundred or one thousand different weapons (I lost count), and every single of them takes a whole sheet. For game purposes, it seems a waste of good ink and paper. Don't you think that this is "simulationism"?<br />anonimous, emperador en el exiliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13204169087393199959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-27839071480653667732017-08-23T10:19:09.786-07:002017-08-23T10:19:09.786-07:00I think you're half right
Storygames _are_ pa...I think you're half right<br /><br />Storygames _are_ part of a conservative shift from the innovation and open-ness of RPGs back toward the constrained and less-creatively challenging nature of boardgames.<br /><br />Lots of them still do assume that RPGs will be ruined by competition and taking things personally, it's very explicit. Like Ben Lehman *author of many terrible and indie-popular narrative games) here:<br /><br />https://plus.google.com/117301572585814320386/posts/Uy3K6mZqP1i<br />Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-84197425938839975852017-08-23T10:08:47.259-07:002017-08-23T10:08:47.259-07:00This is really good on the differences between the...This is really good on the differences between the two design styles but I think you are off on the psychology of their fans, there's an elephant in the room here: boardgames.<br /><br />At least in my experience, everyone who has tried to get me to play Monsterhearts or Apocalypse World has been a big euro-boardgames fan, and I think they see those games and RPGs in general as being a text based variant of those (often literally, as they can be played by email when you can't meet up to play Diplomacy).<br /><br />So they aren't assuming that players are assholes who will ruin the game for everyone by playing ultra-competitively, they are assuming they are good sports who will try and make the game fun/challenging for other players and not take things personally. They don't like non-rules based requirements because it complicates this.<br /><br />And they want games to be accessible, predictable and narrow because they want to play a whole bunch of different games (half the fun is in learning the game after all) with different people (games are a great way to get to know people, right?).<br /><br />And so on, if you think of storygames as being a specialized case of eurogames everything odd about them shifts into focus (including the confusion that anyone would prefer to play a different type of game, have you played Settlers of Catan, come round some time and we will play Settlers of Catan and you will understand why your game is no fun). Though it seems from your quotes that some of the OG designers were operating from a sillier impulse.Verdancyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14062788738549767062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-9520193126006723652017-08-18T05:50:16.887-07:002017-08-18T05:50:16.887-07:00That was a very good and insightful post. Thanks!
...That was a very good and insightful post. Thanks!<br />AndreasDavourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17170806742393291962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-54818503465815597992017-08-18T04:42:47.455-07:002017-08-18T04:42:47.455-07:00Rolemaster fits what I say above:
"
If you&#...Rolemaster fits what I say above:<br /><br />"<br />If you're a Narrativist, you may not get why I wrote down exactly how many liters of olive oil are on the goblin flagship--you may think it's because I want the goblin boat to feel real.<br /><br />Not so much--many novels and stories feel as real as fiction can without such details--these kinds of rules are there because I know my players will try to weaponize them, or bribe warlords with them, or sell them for treasure maps--or otherwise take advantage of anything in their environment to build solutions to problems. A lot of rules that simulate are not there just for the joy of simulating, they are there because they give you more bubble gum and baling wire to Macgyver with.<br />"Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-1586203188676980142017-08-18T04:39:21.214-07:002017-08-18T04:39:21.214-07:00I think there are several pieces of circumstantial...I think there are several pieces of circumstantial evidence tying spectrum behaviors to some behaviors and design features especially characteristic of storygamers.<br /><br />But i am no expert and there are alternate explanations I may be missing.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-55582671265879731792017-08-18T02:28:57.752-07:002017-08-18T02:28:57.752-07:00Simulationism is not a thing?!? I wonder: what do ...Simulationism is not a thing?!? I wonder: what do you think about, for example, "Rolemaster"?anonimous, emperador en el exiliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13204169087393199959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-60787153852164900152017-08-18T02:27:26.708-07:002017-08-18T02:27:26.708-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.anonimous, emperador en el exiliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13204169087393199959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-74816016543854753242017-08-18T02:25:06.239-07:002017-08-18T02:25:06.239-07:00"Most storytelling games appear to be written..."Most storytelling games appear to be written by people who don't grasp what you managed to lay out in paragraphs 6-8 so you'd be playing games written by people who aren't as smart as you."<br /><br />Besides what I've read in this blog, I don't know anything about storygames. Maybe storytelling games are written by autists? Cause I'm into the Autistic Spectre and can't handle a conversation on my own, in spite of scoring an IQ of 142. I totally could use rules for personality, emotions, conversation and romance both ingame and outgame. <br /><br />I can't handle OSR style of play as defined by Goblin Punch because I'm unable to improvise on the spot or thinking outside the box. But if mainstream gaming relies on pre-written plots, then mainstream gaming can go and fuck itself.<br /><br />"since none of the players are trying to conduct actual combat at the table, there's no problem with it."<br /><br />Sometimes I've wished there were rules about punching the GM in the face.anonimous, emperador en el exiliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13204169087393199959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-84516052425240133392017-08-14T04:10:28.440-07:002017-08-14T04:10:28.440-07:00(and, of course, even if they are non-representati...(and, of course, even if they are non-representative, they're still not true. The post doesn't claim they are representative.)Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-30103375500966208852017-08-14T04:08:37.615-07:002017-08-14T04:08:37.615-07:001. I do paraphrase Ron Edwards
2. I do use quotat...1. I do paraphrase Ron Edwards<br /><br />2. I do use quotation marks, but do not attribute the quotes to specific people, so anyone who thinks they are meant as specific quotes from specific people is not reading carefully and so is not intelligent enough to care about in this context.<br /><br />3. I do quote and link Luke Crane<br /><br />4. "If this is the case..." but it's not the case so it doesn't matter. No intelligent person would think I meant to attribute all these quotes to one specific person said all <br /><br />5. "If this is not the case, isn't there the risk that you are refuting your own interpretation of what you think the narrativists are saying?"<br /><br />No.<br /><br />That doesn't even make sense.<br /><br />You can't "refute" an argument by wholly accurately making the opposite argument. I think you must mean something different than what you said.<br /><br />----<br /><br />To head off what you might be trying to say--the things in quotes are such hacky familar online blather that not even the many Narr gamers who stepped up to complain about this post made the argument that "no NArr gamer ever said these things".<br /><br />So if nobody's even claiming these are straw arguments, there's no point in sourcing them (and even if you did, someone bent on claiming they were straw arguments would simply argue they were non-representative).<br />Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-52858382893826919872017-08-14T03:28:56.412-07:002017-08-14T03:28:56.412-07:00When you start rounding up the narrativists' m...When you start rounding up the narrativists' major points, you paraphrase Ron Edwards, then use lots of quotation marks, then quote and link Luke Crane. This gives the impression that all those quotes in between are from Ron Edwards or from Edwards and other Forgites.<br /><br />If this is the case, I think providing actual quotes (and links for context) would be a good idea.<br /><br />If this is not the case, isn't there the risk that you are refuting your own interpretation of what you think the narrativists are saying?<br /><br />In any case, it's a very interesting post with lots of keen observations on challenge-based gaming.Johannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13448463364076631580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-56020727733916080372017-08-13T04:36:00.294-07:002017-08-13T04:36:00.294-07:00I finally have words to explain something I've...I finally have words to explain something I've been struggling to tell people who recommend me FATE and other games for years. Thank you so much.AuraTwilighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08416410309457395856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-52630932754790613612017-08-12T07:54:13.162-07:002017-08-12T07:54:13.162-07:00krokodylzoczami,
"I often find many differen...krokodylzoczami,<br /><br />"I often find many different choices to be appropriate. If a player wants to gather a mob against a local vampire, and I don't have at hand rules for mob gathering, I decide how likely the plan is to succeed."<br /><br />Ask for more details: How do they do it? This is a good idea in case of complex actions.<br /><br />After that, you estimate the probability as well as you can, tell what you come up with to the players, and ask if they think the probability is unrealistic. If they object, discuss and adjust the probability until you agree or the discussion stalls, in which case make a decision now informed by the discussion and your own estimate.<br /><br />If you have no idea, go with 50 % chance if it could go either way, 1/6 or 5/6 if it is quite likely or quite unlikely.<br /><br />Adjust with relevant mechanical details of the characters. All of the following give roughly 50 % chance of success for someone with average charisma, for example: roll under charisma, or d20 + charisma with target number 20, or d20 plus charisma modifier with target number 10.Tommihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12375015095192112280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-38230639711923603842017-08-11T13:53:21.214-07:002017-08-11T13:53:21.214-07:00Yeah I feel like I should add I hadn't thought...Yeah I feel like I should add I hadn't thought about what I and my friends were doing as being challenge based before. That was a very interesting perspective. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953267865314705593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-63918536055636408852017-08-11T13:52:45.398-07:002017-08-11T13:52:45.398-07:00Well here's the thing:
Most storytelling game...Well here's the thing:<br /><br />Most storytelling games appear to be written by people who dont' grasp what you managed to lay out in paragraphs 6-8 so you'd be playing games written by people who aren't as smart as you.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-78192339438264371212017-08-11T13:47:09.442-07:002017-08-11T13:47:09.442-07:00I like the post. It was very interesting.
I used...I like the post. It was very interesting. <br /><br />I used to play a lot of freeform games (we mostly used character creation rules, then abstracted everything else down to a simple 1d10 roll). <br /><br />A lot of it was about challenges towards the player. Negotiate, bluff, figure out the leads, combat was run less like an intellectual challenge and more an action sequence. <br /><br />It was a lot of fun. <br /><br />There's been a lot of times in discussions about rpg theory I felt player skill should be taken into consideration more. <br /><br />I think with rules, they are excellent at modelling things characters do, but players don't do. <br /><br />Because rules are an abstraction. Example: Combat. There's no, (least none that I know of) system that acurrately models a swordfight. Very few even tries, because that's not what combat rules are therefore. And since none of the players are trying to conduct actual combat at the table, there's no problem with it. <br /><br />Compare to say having a conversation, which is something a lot of people have tried making rules for. Because that's something players do as well, the more rules you put in, the more you get in the way of what you are trying to do. <br /><br />Making rules for something the players do, as well as their characters is always more difficult than something just the characters do. Not impossible, but more difficult. <br /><br />Also: Storytelling. Or acting. Or tactical thinking.<br /><br />I think that's the main thing that makes me sceptical against narrative games. Though I have to admit to having very little experience with them.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953267865314705593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-79610144969572246962017-08-11T11:32:14.554-07:002017-08-11T11:32:14.554-07:00The OSR thing to do would be to change the rules.The OSR thing to do would be to change the rules.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.com