tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post3932296245523794441..comments2024-03-28T22:00:35.840-07:00Comments on Playing D&D With Porn Stars: Boredom Is Its Own BalanceZak Sabbathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-25978207728278353962015-09-01T16:48:24.655-07:002015-09-01T16:48:24.655-07:00Also, there are a lot of other issues in the comme...Also, there are a lot of other issues in the comments in this post you left up in the air. You must address every counterargument or concede.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-74395237609441685252015-09-01T16:46:23.184-07:002015-09-01T16:46:23.184-07:00@Korble
1. That was not a rhetorical question. I ...@Korble<br /><br />1. That was not a rhetorical question. I don't ask rhetorical questions. Answer it.<br /><br />2. "<br />I do, however, disagree with the assertion that incompetent GMs should not play/be played with. Incompetence is a state, not an inherent trait, as such, it can be fixed, and the best way to do that is practice guided by advice. I<br />"<br />Then our disagreement is about whether bad GMs learn to be better by having crunchy rulesets that force them to stop the game and read long paragraphs midgame (which can create more problems because their players will be bored) or by being forced to make up spot rulings and stick to them (which can create more problems because their players will be bored)<br /><br />3. You will be allowed to comment on this blog once you address these issues AND go back to the Gaming Den and address all your bad behavior there by editing it and apologizing.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-73180642994194110542014-07-01T19:57:20.705-07:002014-07-01T19:57:20.705-07:00No because you're just making me repeat myself...No because you're just making me repeat myself and not addressing the point I just made:<br />-<br />-<br />"All of that exists without the rule, too. I mean, didn't you just say it was the player's responsibility to make playing the PC they want it's own reward?""<br /><br />Half-true, but you missed the obvious: Putting the bonus at stake on the dex roll gives that scene and the roll more tension. It's more exciting because there are stakes.<br /><br />Again: Type something that acknowledges you grasp this or ask a question about it or you'll be banned. A simple "Ok." or "Ok, but…" is fine.<br /><br />So there's a good reason for the rule.<br />_<br />-<br />If your next comment doesn't address this, we'll all have to assume you're just trying to be a dick and not trying to understand or argue for anything.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-84771831199498720722014-07-01T17:48:25.457-07:002014-07-01T17:48:25.457-07:00"If the players WANT to play a wandering mins..."If the players WANT to play a wandering minstrel band it's good. If they don't and are just doing it for the mechanical bonus it's boring."<br /><br />So...if the party wanted to play minstrels regardless of the rule, then this rule is for them (which they apparently wouldn't have cared about in the first place?), but if they don't want to play minstrels then it's not for them and if they make use of it anyway they shouldn't be allowed to play at all?<br /><br />Clearly I'm having trouble understanding who you think would make good use of this rule. Maybe you can help me out?<br /><br />This is what I see-<br /><br />If you want to play minstrels, then whether the rule is there or not, you're going to play minstrels. The rule doesn't even enter your mind, not during chargen, and not during play. The only time you would even be aware of the rule is when your DM reminds you to use it. But you were already going to sing/play an instrument, so it doesn't affect how you play much, if at all.<br /><br />OTOH, you weren't thinking of playing a minstrel. After playing through a couple sessions where social encounters kept happening and you realized you weren't helping the party very much, felt like you weren't having much fun, you think to yourself, "Maybe there's something I can do to change that a bit." You realize there's this musical instrument rule, and decide to pick up a musical instrument in order to take advantage of the bonus for the next social encounter. Yeah, it's kind of silly trying to describe to the DM and group just what you're playing to convince the innkeeper to give you a discount, but everyone has a good laugh and you at least helped. It sounds to me like you're against this idea, because the player doesn't want to be playing a minstrel, he's just doing it for the bonus, right? He's an asshole and should be kicked out. If I'm wrong, please, just tell me how he's not doing what you said he shouldn't do.<br /><br />If the above are true, then is there any player who would actually consciously make use of this rule without being an asshole?<br /><br />There, I asked questions. Happy?Keonionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07812917953196442093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-55396376009858425012014-07-01T15:16:07.665-07:002014-07-01T15:16:07.665-07:00"I could be a perfectly normal player with a ..."I could be a perfectly normal player with a Rogue, work out this essentially free bonus, and decide to just pick up a kazoo in town for the social bonus, even though my Rogue was not originally a musical character. And you're saying I just went from perfectly acceptable player to asshole?"<br /><br />I said nothing about the "original conception" of the character, I said "If the players WANT to play a wandering minstrel band it's good. If they don't and are just doing it for the mechanical bonus it's boring."<br /><br />If you strawman again, you will not be allowed to comment again. It wastes time.<br /><br />Please type something that acknowledges that you read and grasped what I wrote. Again: if you don't do that and plow on like you didn't read this, you won't be allowed to comment any more.<br /><br /><br /><br />" you weren't trying to reward fiddlers, or you were? "<br /><br />I'm not. The rule provides an opportunity for the players to possibly reward _themselves_ and the rest of the table by being creative about fiddling.<br /><br />Acknowledge you read this and grasped it in your next comment or ask a question about it or you;ll be banned from commenting.<br /><br />"All of that exists without the rule, too. I mean, didn't you just say it was the player's responsibility to make playing the PC they want it's own reward?""<br /><br />Half-true, but you missed the obvious: Putting the bonus at stake on the dex roll gives that scene and the roll more tension. It's more exciting because there are stakes.<br /><br />Again: Type something that acknowledges you grasp this or ask a question about it or you'll be banned. A simple "Ok." or "Ok, but…" is fine.<br /><br />So there's a good reason for the rule.<br /><br />"But what are you shaming them for, exactly?"<br /><br />Being boring.<br /><br />"I mean, there's nothing wrong with playing a game that's mostly just you and your friends making up fantasy-themed stuff and making jokes about all of that, but to then turn around and say that anyone who appreciates role-playing games *as games*..."<br /><br />Strawman. Your claim that we don't appreciate the games _as games_ is inaccurate. It is simply that the part of the game _you do without other people (chargen) that involves engaging not with the scenario but only with the math specific to the game_ is not the interesting part of the game. The fictional positioning is.<br /><br />Again: Acknowledge you read this and grasped it in your next comment or ask a question about it or you;ll be banned from commenting.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-54501053606930837802014-07-01T13:01:42.592-07:002014-07-01T13:01:42.592-07:00The more I think about this rule, the more I just ...The more I think about this rule, the more I just keep thinking of John Belushi in Animal House and how the folksinging guy obviously failed his charisma check.Gort's Friendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08684913847135419951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-62784807932040265262014-07-01T12:59:46.724-07:002014-07-01T12:59:46.724-07:00It comes about in the original AD&D rules, whe...It comes about in the original AD&D rules, when you decide to use all the armor bonuses, but haven't started using initiative and don't have a rule which allows you extra hits against really slow people. I seem to remember it was countered by strictly enforcing the amount of space required to use a two handed sword and/or halberd. I remember it being a problem in the era before the DMs guide came out as we were freeballing the combat rules piece meal.Gort's Friendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08684913847135419951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-37483837336881664832014-07-01T12:49:06.973-07:002014-07-01T12:49:06.973-07:00"If they put mechanics over aesthetics to tha..."If they put mechanics over aesthetics to that degree, they are assholes. We've been over this."<br /><br />And the degree in your example is very, very slight. A free, relatively reliable bonus to social skills, and all it requires is you carry an instrument and have high DEX, like over 50% of all characters have. I could be a perfectly normal player with a Rogue, work out this essentially free bonus, and decide to just pick up a kazoo in town for the social bonus, even though my Rogue was not originally a musical character. And you're saying I just went from perfectly acceptable player to asshole? That's pretty asinine, don't you think? I mean, what does that make you?<br /><br />"I never said I wanted to reward people for wanting to play fiddlers."<br /><br />"The rule...gives the fiddler the _opportunity_ to shine if they can make something of it. It...provides a moment where they can talk about what they''ll play and how they'll play it and to whom, and they and the GM and other players get a moment to try to make a fun scene of that because the fiddler likes the idea of playing a fiddle and there is a real advantage, however small."<br /><br />So which is it: you weren't trying to reward fiddlers, or you were? I just can't tell from what you're saying. You seem to want it both ways.<br /><br />"It's not mechanically fun as-written (or unfun), it simply clears a space where the players (if they are fun) can make fun happen through role=playing, metagame joking, in-game joking, narration, etc."<br /><br />All of that exists without the rule, too. I mean, didn't you just say it was the player's responsibility to make playing the PC they want it's own reward?<br /><br />Maybe you're clueless as to what effect throwing rules around like this has, but it seems like people who are just looking for space to role-play, joke around in-or-out-of-game, or narrate something has nothing whatsoever to do with rules.<br /><br />By your own argument, there's no need for this rule except to give you an excuse to start shaming people who have the audacity to claim that rules can and, in fact, do influence player decisions. But what are you shaming them for, exactly? I mean, there's nothing wrong with playing a game that's mostly just you and your friends making up fantasy-themed stuff and making jokes about all of that, but to then turn around and say that anyone who appreciates role-playing games *as games* is an asshole strikes me as a little, I dunno, asshole-ish, don't you think?Keonionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07812917953196442093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-1521635483035499442014-07-01T11:36:51.699-07:002014-07-01T11:36:51.699-07:00"You mean to say that no matter how obvious, ..."You mean to say that no matter how obvious, people consciously ignore mechanical incentives at all costs just to be faithful to a character aesthetic?"<br /><br />If they put mechanics over aesthetics to that degree, they are assholes. We've been over this.<br /><br />"That no party of players ever looked back at a string of TPKs and thought, "Guess someone should roll a Cleric?""<br /><br />If a person willingly _plays a cleric despite not wanting to_ just for mechanical advantage, they're an asshole.<br /><br />I never said I wanted to reward people for wanting to play fiddlers. There's nothing good or noble about wanting to play a fiddler in itself. It is up to the fiddler to make playing the PC they want it's own reward.<br /><br />The rule merely reflects a true dynamic in the premodern era (No radio, no tv, no internet,no movies--people were desperate for entertainment) and gives the fiddler the _opportunity_ to shine if they can make something of it. It doesn't guarantee they'll shine--but it provides a moment where they can talk about what they''ll play and how they'll play it and to whom, and they and the GM and other players get a moment to try to make a fun scene of that because the fiddler likes the idea of playing a fiddle and there is a real advantage, however small.<br /><br />It's not mechanically fun as-written (or unfun), it simply clears a space where the players (if they are fun) can make fun happen through role=playing, metagame joking, in-game joking, narration, etc.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-52848755383536445762014-07-01T09:24:37.245-07:002014-07-01T09:24:37.245-07:00"Because nobody who's ever played a game ..."Because nobody who's ever played a game would think that. Because it ignores the fact that hardly anyone is going to go to all the trouble to have their character play a fiddle if they don't want a character who plays the fiddle."<br /><br />Wait, what? You mean to say that no matter how obvious, people consciously ignore mechanical incentives at all costs just to be faithful to a character aesthetic? That no party of players ever looked back at a string of TPKs and thought, "Guess someone should roll a Cleric?" Does that scenario really seem unnatural or wrong to you?<br /><br />My issue with this rule is that, besides being very advantageous for a trivial cost, this doesn't actually reward people who want to play fiddlers. "It doesn't?" you ask. No, it rewards people who want to play social characters. It *incentivizes* playing a fiddler, but it doesn't *reward* the original desire.<br /><br />That's an important difference I think you're missing. Rewarding people who want to play fiddlers would mean making the playing of a fiddle actually fun somehow, not just giving you bonuses towards some other goal. The way the rule is written now, it does nothing for the fiddlers; it only does anything for the social players looking to improve their odds in that space. Now you say that it *shouldn't* appeal to players just looking for social bonuses, but *should* appeal to players who just want to fiddle, but the rule as written gives nothing to fiddlers and everything to diplomancers.<br /><br />Who do you think this rule is actually written to benefit? Does it, in fact, do that?Keonionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07812917953196442093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-22888867918097814522014-07-01T01:25:35.733-07:002014-07-01T01:25:35.733-07:00you've made a mistake.
I want a specific kind ...you've made a mistake.<br />I want a specific kind of game: LOTS of spells and monsters, but ALL of them have short descriptions.<br />Do you grasp that?<br />incompetent GMs should not play or be played with, Malicious ones too, and if naive ones are unavoidable, they _need to work without a net in order to learn to improvise_<br />There is no reason to enable malicious or incompetent GMs. Making rules to enable them is bad. Making rules that accept them at the table is bad.<br />People who are abusive are assholes. They should not be in a game.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-29185060081173746692014-06-30T19:49:22.659-07:002014-06-30T19:49:22.659-07:00I am fucking reading, damnit. You've put forth...I am fucking reading, damnit. You've put forth two opposed viewpoints and are acting as if they're compatible. You want, and write, rules lite systems, but then you say that the point of more rules heavy systems is that they have defaults from which you can vary to your taste.<br /><br />This still makes the case that rules heavy system is stronger than a rules lite system because the former has _more defaults_, while the latter is charging people for the ability to _make shit up with no defaults_.<br /><br />Also, you're wrong. My definition of a strong system is not "has extra words to make it asshole-proof," but rather "has set rules so everyone knows what the standard is, and game isn't bogged down by the GM making everything up on his own, or (as) actively harmed by GM naivete or incompetence, and the potential of harm coming from active GM malevolence is lessened" (except that of course an actively malevolent GM will just make shit up anyway. A system with more rules just gives players more arguments against "rocks fall, everyone dies").<br /><br />I can point you to a thread RIGHT NOW where I said "I am more than comfortable with not taking into account what assholes with do with this system," the key difference is that I am using the term to describe people whose reaction to a diplomacy system where players can make up the goal is "awesome, I enslave the entire world," while you're using the term to describe _people who play differently from you._Valravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366645064031131125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-2471968315113844502014-06-30T19:01:37.947-07:002014-06-30T19:01:37.947-07:00I've already addressed this:
"Because (in...I've already addressed this:<br />"Because (including spells and monsters) D&D and games like it have literally thousands of rules so it's useful to have defaults for rules you haven't customized yet. Also: many of the rules are good and fun and create interesting outcomes--collaborating with the author of the rulebook to create a ruleset is rewarding.<br />The point of the rules is to consistently reward thinking about fictional positioning, not to reward thinking about the rules.<br />The published rules are a set of better or worse advice."<br />Now:<br />"Even if you say that people buy such books because they don't have time to make everything up on their own, that's actually an argument for rulebooks with strong systems."<br /><br />And these systems are "strong".<br /><br />Your definition of "strong" is (apparently) "Has extra words to make it asshole-proof".<br />Ours is "Does not have extra words to make it easier to use".<br /><br />_Please do not make another comment which fails to take into account a response I've ALREADY given you. Please read what you're responding to in full and then give an answer that takes into account what you've already been told. Otherwise you're slowing the conversation down.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-20159380753718067782014-06-30T18:06:26.257-07:002014-06-30T18:06:26.257-07:00I return to my question of why anyone should ever ...I return to my question of why anyone should ever buy a rulebook then. We're all quite capable of making shit up on our own, we don't need to buy a book telling how to do it.<br /><br />Even if you say that people buy such books because they don't have time to make everything up on their own, that's actually an argument for rulebooks with strong systems.<br /><br />I mean, sure, you can produce whatever you want, but in my opinion, asking money for "How to Make Shit Up" is actively dishonest.Valravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366645064031131125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-44251392682769312652014-06-30T13:33:28.541-07:002014-06-30T13:33:28.541-07:00Every person's body is a little different, so ...Every person's body is a little different, so suits are.<br />Every group's personalities, desires, microcompetences levels of patience and tastes are _even more_ different (as aggregate) than their bodies, so the idea of noncustomized game "working" for both us and the (non-me) designer is something I have zero experience of and I doubt is possible, at least for us.<br />Every game I have ever played RAW fails my group in some obvious way immediately.<br />Now if you're tedious, you'll remind me I'm not the majority, but that's irrelevant. I am allowed to create a creative product for me (as is Monte). And, like all responsible creative products, you put what you yourself like out there and let whatever audience agrees with you buy it if they want.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-30011510573835426272014-06-30T13:24:17.609-07:002014-06-30T13:24:17.609-07:00Just out of curiosity, why do you liken buying a g...Just out of curiosity, why do you liken buying a game to buying a suit, ie, something to tailor? Why would you not see buying a game, at least ideally, as similar to buying a computer, ie, something which out of the box functions perfectly acceptably for the majority of tasks a buyer could want but could, if desired, be customized?Valravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366645064031131125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-58806802536649024242014-06-30T02:33:25.573-07:002014-06-30T02:33:25.573-07:00"if it's any amount of bonus that matters..."if it's any amount of bonus that matters, then most people will take it."<br />'Most People' aren't the target audience, don't have to be, and there's no ethical imperative for them to be. Most Americans are morons. Most gamers are morons. None of this means it unethical to make a game that isn't for morons.<br />"If you see the cost of the option as being "talk about fiddling, suffer fiddle jokes, make social encounters take twice as much out of game time as normal" then that should be in the entry, because not everyone will assume that."<br />…if so it's because they're morons. All good culture is gonna lose some morons.<br />"But if system-mastery isn't rewarded, then why are you using a system?"<br />Because (including spells and monsters) D&D and games like it have literally thousands of rules so it's useful to have defaults for rules you haven't customized yet. Also: many of the rules are good and fun and create interesting outcomes--collaborating with the author of the rulebook to create a ruleset is rewarding.<br />The point of the rules is to consistently reward thinking about fictional positioning, not to reward thinking about the rules.<br />The published rules are a set of better or worse advice.<br />We've been over this a million times: a suit you need to get tailored isn't a useless suit--that's what you do with a suit, by it and then get it tailored.<br />All the work to make the rules asshole-proof makes the printed text longer and harder to consult midgame. Many groups experience the search-and-handling times necessary to sift through rules they don't use to find rules they do use an annoying interruption of the game. It is ok to write for this audience, no matter what size it is.<br />Thank you for addressing the points raised. If you continue to do so, that's good.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-26092017548131409372014-06-30T02:33:15.608-07:002014-06-30T02:33:15.608-07:00 "It's NOT unbalanced because nobody who ... "It's NOT unbalanced because nobody who didn't want to play a guy with a fiddle would take it unless they were a douche and douches don't get to play." "That is not the definition of balance. That... I'm not sure what that is,"<br />Whatever it is, the point is it's fine.<br /><br />"Incorrect for an obvious reason: nobody who isn't me needs to play my game. If they want it, take it, if they don't, then they can play one of the many other games on the market." "No, if you are charging for a product, then it behooves you to make the best product you can."<br />Certainly: but the 'best product' is not 'the product that the greatest number of assholes will like' it's 'the one that you yourself would play and most benefit from'. Like any art form: integrity is about giving people work you'd appreciate as an audience, not larding up the rules in case part of your audience is evil.<br />There is no ethical imperative to be popular or to make money.There is an ethical imperative to do _your best_ and people do their best when they're making things they themselves would and will use.<br />"That or make it abundantly clear that it is for a very specific subset of the market, and at that point you might as well give the pdf away for free, since really you just wrote it for yourself and your friends."<br />Just because you wrote something for your friends it doesn't logically follow that you aren't allowed to profit from like-minded individuals seeing it, too.<br /> "There's never a good reason to play with assholes, regardless of ruleset--unless there's a tournament--in which case, use a different system." "I played for a very long time with a group I was not entirely fond of because they were pretty much the only game in town. Literally, at least for me. If I wanted to game, they were my only option."<br />Then you should not have played.<br />"if you're asking money for a ruleset, there should be a ruleset there. The example you posted essentially to call people who are interested in having solid rules awful people is barely a rule."<br />By that logic, the strike zone in baseball is "barely a rule".<br />Fine, it's not a rule--it's a thing for a social construct people who aren't you and are more fun than you use to construct intellectual challenges to have fun with each other . Please stop reading this blog: it isn't about your other hobby.<br />Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-17779106304736538442014-06-30T02:01:35.873-07:002014-06-30T02:01:35.873-07:00"Monte is not your performing monkey: the ass..."Monte is not your performing monkey: the assholes in the audience deserve to suffer for being assholes. Even if they put money into the kickstarter."<br /><br />I didn't say he was my performing monkey. He is however a writer designing a product for sale which consists, at least partially, of rules. His setting is interesting (if odd), but if you're asking money for a ruleset, there should be a ruleset there. The example you posted essentially to call people who are interested in having solid rules awful people is barely a rule. I get that it was just an example, but if it's any amount of bonus that matters, then most people will take it. If you see the cost of the option as being "talk about fiddling, suffer fiddle jokes, make social encounters take twice as much out of game time as normal" then that should be in the entry, because not everyone will assume that. In a large number of groups this would be used the following way:<br /><br />Player: "I'm going to pull out my ukulele and play Ukulele Anthem before I appeal to the court about my right to play the ukulele all day long singing at the top of my lungs."<br />DM: "The court will get none of the references. Also, it will make the court hearing take about another three minutes."<br />Player: "Well, I mean, I'll use appropriate notable historical figures from the setting."<br />DM: "Ok, make your dex roll. Also an int roll to know appropriate historical figures."<br />Player: *rolls* "Sweet! Made it!"<br />DM: "Ok, roll Diplomacy with a +X bonus."<br />(Alternatively: "Damn, I can't come up with appropriate figures. Guess I'll just talk." or "Damn, my performance sucked. Hey Fighter, you're my attorney!" [fighter: "Can I borrow your ukulele?" alt:"Ok, I pull out my spoons...")<br /><br />"Your min/maxing idea is silly because min/maxing involves adjusting numbers _unique to the system_ not _unique to the setting_ (i.e. it rewards mastery of the game system--which is privileges people with time on their hands to read the game). Minmaxed character have no better chance of survival in a well-run game because fictional positioning is more important than that shit."<br /><br />Ok, yes, it entirely depends on how you run your games. But if system-mastery isn't rewarded, then why are you using a system? If you just want to tell a story, you don't need a rulebook. You can just sit down with a few pieces of loose leaf with "if you do this, it will generally benefit your character, if you do this, it will generally poorly influence outcomes for your character" Or hell, just tell people as they make decisions "if you do that, [x] is likely to happen." This is tied to my "if you're charging people money, there should be a reasonably solid ruleset, or at least a ruleset that is better than the players just making things up off the top of their heads" thing.Valravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366645064031131125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-24220692311104276192014-06-30T02:00:09.751-07:002014-06-30T02:00:09.751-07:00"You first paragraph reads like you didn'..."You first paragraph reads like you didn't read the thing you're commenting on."<br /><br />I confess, I skim things online, especially when they call people like me awful. But fair's fair, if I'm going to comment, I should read in full, so I did.<br /><br />"It's NOT unbalanced because nobody who didn't want to play a guy with a fiddle would take it unless they were a douche and douches don't get to play."<br /><br />That is not the definition of balance. That... I'm not sure what that is, but it's not balance. Balance, between players in this character, is the insurance that no one player's character is more powerful than any other character (generally speaking. Clearly a mage type is going to be a plain better spellcaster than a fighter type). This piece of equipment automatically makes any character who takes it more powerful in the social arena than an equivalent one who doesn't, at a minor cost in character resources, and a cost in player resources that would vary by DM. Anyone who wants to interact with npcs would do better to buy a ukulele than... I don't know, a couple daggers for throwing. You don't give any kind of idea as to the comparative price of a small instrument, probably because you would spitball the exact price based on the exact instrument (which, I must say, is actually better than having one set price for all instruments of a category, so I'm not faulting you). Seriously, a triangle probably costs no more than a couple pitons, the spoons even less, and at least half the time, it will be beneficial.<br /><br />"Incorrect for an obvious reason: nobody who isn't me needs to play my game. If they want it, take it, if they don't, then they can play one of the many other games on the market."<br /><br />No, if you are charging for a product, then it behooves you to make the best product you can. That or make it abundantly clear that it is for a very specific subset of the market, and at that point you might as well give the pdf away for free, since really you just wrote it for yourself and your friends.<br /><br />"There's never a good reason to play with assholes, regardless of ruleset--unless there's a tournament--in which case, use a different system."<br /><br />I don't know when you started playing. I started playing when I was in high school, and while, so far as I can tell, you are a socially apt extrovert, or at the very least, good at socializing, I am not. I played for a very long time with a group I was not entirely fond of because they were pretty much the only game in town. Literally, at least for me. If I wanted to game, they were my only option. It was not until the GM started ripping away aspects of the games he did not like which reduced character options and player agency in creation that I decided playing was not worth spending the games irritated by his mid-game changes. At least not with the lengthy bus ride and walk that it took to get there. But in general, a lot of players will put up with a subpar group if the alternative is not playing at all. Maybe it's my age group, maybe it's my lack of social skills sufficient to create a better group, maybe it's my location, but I have definitely found myself in that situation more than once.<br /><br />(apparently this comment exceeds the character limit, so to be continued)Valravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366645064031131125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-6215104720786395592014-06-30T00:04:49.378-07:002014-06-30T00:04:49.378-07:00You first paragraph reads like you didn't read...You first paragraph reads like you didn't read the thing you're commenting on.<br /><br />"If an option is so superior that everyone able to should take it (ie, a musical instrument that gives a bonus on interactions if a dex test is passed, which doesn't require, say, ranks in perform) then it unbalanced, because the benefit (bonus on interactions) outweighs the drawbacks (...none, except adventurers all have hobo-fiddles now). "<br /><br />It's NOT unbalanced because nobody who didn't want to play a guy with a fiddle would take it unless they were a douche and douches don't get to play.<br /><br />"If you're making a game as a product, then you should go out of your way to make things as balanced as you can, because not everyone is you and your group,"<br /><br />Incorrect for an obvious reason: nobody who isn't me needs to play my game. If they want it, take it, if they don't, then they can play one of the many other games on the market.<br /><br />" there may be people who buy your game and are forced into the choice of "play with people I consider assholes, or not play at all,"<br /><br />There's never a good reason to play with assholes, regardless of ruleset--unless there's a tournament--in which case, use a different system.<br /><br />"But those are two very different things, and while this might work for, say, your own game that you just run for your friends, Zak, it should not be the hallmark of, say, Numernera, which was kickstarted for half a million dollars by people who I can guarantee are not a homogenous mass and most likely include people Monte would consider assholes."<br /><br />Monte is not your performing monkey: the assholes in the audience deserve to suffer for being assholes. Even if they put money into the kickstarter.<br /><br />Your min/maxing idea is silly because min/maxing involves adjusting numbers _unique to the system_ not _unique to the setting_ (i.e. it rewards mastery of the game system--which is privileges people with time on their hands to read the game). Minmaxed character have no better chance of survival in a well-run game because fictional positioning is more important than that shit.<br /><br />You have to address these problems in your next comment or you won't be allowed to comment again.<br />Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-66928817036773801262014-06-29T23:54:05.305-07:002014-06-29T23:54:05.305-07:00All games I've ever seen do give all character...All games I've ever seen do give all characters *something* they can do to advance their side's goals in all areas.<br />You are incorrect.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-26943868876913091172014-06-29T23:52:53.885-07:002014-06-29T23:52:53.885-07:00Did you even read the thing you're commenting ...Did you even read the thing you're commenting on?<br /><br />If the players WANT to play a wandering minstrel band it's good. If they don't and are just doing it for the mechanical bonus it's boring.<br /><br />That is why.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-51455325454197258752014-06-29T16:00:08.019-07:002014-06-29T16:00:08.019-07:00Some mistaken novice minmaxers do, and it is kind ...Some mistaken novice minmaxers do, and it is kind of my personal inclination to build generalists in games I'm new to.<br /><br />But no, an optimized character shouldn't try to be perfect in all areas. However, a game should give all characters *something* they can do to advance their side's goals in all areas, which is something a lot of modern games still lack, and something that old games almost institutionally lack (perhaps based on the assumption that DMs would fiat ways for characters to contribute)Valravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366645064031131125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-61471374586869600892014-06-29T15:55:11.044-07:002014-06-29T15:55:11.044-07:00Why is it boring for the intrepid adventurers to w...Why is it boring for the intrepid adventurers to want to improve their chances of success in their high risk career by doing everything they can, up to and including adding "wandering minstrel band" to their resume, to improve their chances of success with frequently hostile strangers?<br /><br />Why is that boring? Why is it bad or wrong to improve your chances of success at your chosen career or goal through every rules-legal option?<br /><br />(why can't people differentiate between munchkinism, power gaming, and min maxing?)Valravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366645064031131125noreply@blogger.com