tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post3107581567226955981..comments2024-03-28T22:00:35.840-07:00Comments on Playing D&D With Porn Stars: Mood and MoralityZak Sabbathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-16762357251625429432011-06-12T06:10:33.884-07:002011-06-12T06:10:33.884-07:00@Zak @huth
I would say, then, that for me, I thin...@Zak @huth<br /><br />I would say, then, that for me, I think horror, weird, and humor can all co-exist quite well together in the same scene, almost the same instant, at least by my reactions to thing, but YMMV. I think I have a more pronounced level of discomfort with things and would be more likely to classify something as falling into "horror" as a result than many other folks.Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00435243803003028117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-59490144329536896242011-06-11T21:53:46.365-07:002011-06-11T21:53:46.365-07:00@brandon
Fear is an emotional reaction to the pos...@brandon<br /><br />Fear is an emotional reaction to the possibility of something that sucks. Repulsion or discomfiture do kind of suck, but generally things that are repulsive are used to indicate something else that should be feared in a story (a dead body indicates a deadifying agency), rather than being the thing feared itself.<br /><br />So, yes.huthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16502682297320819595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-58039715211610819752011-06-11T21:46:03.678-07:002011-06-11T21:46:03.678-07:00@brandon
@caleb
when I say horror or the feeling...@brandon<br /><br />@caleb<br /><br />when I say horror or the feeling of horror I include anything that might be plausibly be classed in that genre-even if it's merely macabre or spooky.<br /><br />Discomfort? that could be the Just Weird.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-66561937692696979942011-06-11T21:31:26.059-07:002011-06-11T21:31:26.059-07:00Zak, does revulsion, or perhaps other kinds of dis...Zak, does revulsion, or perhaps other kinds of discomfort, play a role in "horror", or only fear? I'm curious to know, because if they don't, where would they fall on the scale? I know, I'm getting into some semantic territory, but I guess I'm a little confuzzled.Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00435243803003028117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-18596531466452805202011-06-10T19:01:36.541-07:002011-06-10T19:01:36.541-07:00I would suggest that Elric does a fairly good job ...I would suggest that Elric does a fairly good job of breaking your template, by simultaneously feeling weird and heroic while avoiding a lot of horror at the same time. There are definitely horrific-heroic parts, though. (It's almost never funny). Thoughts?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-78945343645861170622011-06-10T11:17:31.000-07:002011-06-10T11:17:31.000-07:00Fair enough. Different kinds of horror.Fair enough. Different kinds of horror.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-77370699134473555272011-06-10T11:11:23.393-07:002011-06-10T11:11:23.393-07:00@stuart
Well as I am defining them here, I mean &...@stuart<br /><br />Well as I am defining them here, I mean "an aesthetic reaction including the felt emotion of a level of fear"--not simply an intellectual awareness that something is bad.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-57094070710724298202011-06-10T11:07:11.704-07:002011-06-10T11:07:11.704-07:00You said Horror though, not Fear. When I watch foo...You said Horror though, not Fear. When I watch footage from Auschwitz I feel horror but not fear. If I'm playing Hide-and-Seek I might feel fear but not horror. Horror can be fearful (Hellraiser) but it can also be a stunned shock sort of reaction (Se7en).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-49825599215409050792011-06-10T10:59:52.879-07:002011-06-10T10:59:52.879-07:00@stuart
When Marvin gets shot in the face I feel ...@stuart<br /><br />When Marvin gets shot in the face I feel no fear. And I have never seen anyone ever do anything "fear" related during that scene and I have never, until now, heard about anyone being genuinely -scared- by that scene. I think, in short, it's not a good example. However, your experience may be different. However, you often also say things on-line that make no sense and don't explain them so maybe you're just into that.<br /><br />Marvin getting shot in the face -is- a horrific event--but the emotion of horror fails to occur, so far as I can see. This is one reason moralistic asshole critics don't like Tarantino--the violence is often not -felt- as a bad thing.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-91180008650401065882011-06-10T10:06:51.280-07:002011-06-10T10:06:51.280-07:00Best thing I've read this week. Bravo.Best thing I've read this week. Bravo.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17635116929490398699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-49668439889896288922011-06-10T09:10:49.035-07:002011-06-10T09:10:49.035-07:00While reading your post I kept thinking of the sim...While reading your post I kept thinking of the similarity between the "mental disconnect" that can happen when transitioning between these moods, and the weird-horrific feelings you experience when peering out over The Uncanny Valley. Good stuff man.Koephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14994027264118155100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-36177587461667906352011-06-10T09:04:54.958-07:002011-06-10T09:04:54.958-07:00Nice. I think one thing you can do with this, onc...Nice. I think one thing you can do with this, once you start thinking in terms of the spectrum, is use it to generate new ideas/situations by shifting things up or down. Want something Weird start with something funny-- guy in a bat suit. But what if it is a cape made of stitched together bat skins, or, no, what if it is a person forced to have living bats tied all over them, flapping, trying to escape-- creepy.<br /><br />I think this is also very important for a DM because if you want to be able to hit all these notes you can't let your game world get so gonzo that nothing seems heroic and you can't let things be so damn serious you can't laugh at stuff. Exploration lends itself well to the uncertainty in the middle of the spectrum.<br /><br />One last bit, I think the Aeon Flux cartoon where each protagonist dies to be followed by another is interesting <i>because</i> it is playing with that idea of heroism/horror/weird.Telecanterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238356788092725244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-30736427126744470822011-06-10T08:12:33.584-07:002011-06-10T08:12:33.584-07:00The basic idea is: during any one specific moment ...<em>The basic idea is: during any one specific moment in a work you can get any 2 adjacent emotional effects simultaneously fairly easily and if you're real good you can get 3 adjacent effects in a specific moment. You can't get nonadjacent effects without the one in between. So: no horrific-funny without also weird and no heroic-weird without horrific. </em><br /><br />Pulp Fiction. When the guy in the car gets shot in the face.<br /><br />Horror and Humor are closely linked emotions and that's why you frequently see both in horror films (eg. Nightmare on Elm Street et al). It's a psychological phenomenon that when we encounter something "wrong" it could either go the fear route or the funny route.<br /><br />Sometimes, like in Pulp Fiction, it can go both ways.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-73108054546899583612011-06-10T08:06:07.182-07:002011-06-10T08:06:07.182-07:00There was a piece on one of the many NPR shows ear...There was a piece on one of the many NPR shows earlier this week that discussed the relationship between humor and fear. It proposed that humor is predicated largely on fear and is a tool for coping with fear. You take a situation that would be fearful, or at least very uncomfortable, and you make it funny by generating necessary distance. This does sort of mesh with what you assert here. It also explains why I get so uncomfortable watching Seinfeld (can't stand the show). I don't have enough distance, so I see it as uncomfortable instead of funny.Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00435243803003028117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-16007829643417773542011-06-10T05:31:26.100-07:002011-06-10T05:31:26.100-07:00Very well said.Very well said.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-81842929905741954632011-06-10T04:55:10.125-07:002011-06-10T04:55:10.125-07:00It's just how that violation of expectation is...<i>It's just how that violation of expectation is contextualized and presented that makes the difference.</i><br /><br />The emotional relationship to the thing expected is what contextualizes it–horror is something hoped for, heroism is something despaired of, funny is something under the radar, weird is a null zone of uncertainty, where you look for more data to contextualize (or flee from the task of contextualization). That's why Horror and Heroism are next to each other. Their emotional contextualization is so easy to be flipped. That's why humour and weird are often lumped together as well, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiGRpm6Tf3I" rel="nofollow">since laughter is pretty much an emotional reaction to recognizing contrast.</a> Or at least that's what pop-sci neurology tells me. <br /><br />I think there's also something to be said for of these moods, any 'weird' being vaguely associated with negativity. Our instincts to recoil at the disgusting or unexpected are there to try and protect us from disease or dangerous unanticipated behaviours. The courageous part of heroism is ability to put aside that emotion and grapple with the monster (if it's horrific) or uncover the mystery (if it's weird) or restore things to their expected working conditions (if you're dealing with the sick, broken or disgusting).<br /><br />That courage is itself weird or unexpected, though, and tends to relegate you to another world of outsiderness. So cops and doctors and tortured vampires with a soul and <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7-TQdN40Dk" rel="nofollow">batmans</a> and pollocks have shitty home lives. <br />...This comment was just an excuse to post the sausages link.huthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16502682297320819595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-49016230199807441612011-06-10T04:01:19.453-07:002011-06-10T04:01:19.453-07:00When I saw the chart in my google reader, the firs...When I saw the chart in my google reader, the first thing that popped into my head was Twin Peaks. Which of course you hit.mordicaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05713766652793265867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-37238942500302580362011-06-10T03:43:46.217-07:002011-06-10T03:43:46.217-07:00Zak, this is one of the best things you've wri...Zak, this is one of the best things you've written. Great analysis and nice examples too.Simon Forsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01243845335993440168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-70079750746876439882011-06-10T03:23:00.387-07:002011-06-10T03:23:00.387-07:00Good analysis. I think presenting it as sort of a...Good analysis. I think presenting it as sort of a spectrum gets to an underlying truth: humor, the weird, and horror can all result from things happening <i>against expectations</i>. It's just how that violation of expectation is contextualized and presented that makes the difference.<br /><br />I'm not sure about whether the heroic does that or not. Maybe it shares the focus on tension that can be part of horror? Anticipation of a certain outcome builds the mood?Treyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04647628467658839351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-80513648843433108252011-06-10T03:20:11.279-07:002011-06-10T03:20:11.279-07:00This is a great analysis and explanation, Zak. I e...This is a great analysis and explanation, Zak. I especially like the take on the "weird" as anxiety rather than fear.<br /><br />I see an underlying dimension, too, which is the balance of investment between the audience and the setting. If the effect is funny, the audience retains their normal perspective. Weird, the audience has it shaken. Horror, the audience still identifies with the self, but is immersed in the threat of the setting. Heroic, the audience jettisons the sneaker-wearing self entirely and identifies with the setting's enhanced self-surrogate. <br /><br />In some ways this explains the wrap-around effect you mentioned; once the self comfortably inhabits the frame of the hero, it feels free to make jokes, but only in-character as a show of confidence.<br /><br />Also, I couldn't help but read this in the light of <a href="http://rolesrules.blogspot.com/search/label/disgust" rel="nofollow">my recent posts</a> and substitute in "disgust" for "horror" (which is part disgust anyway). Yep, that works too, but then you get a slightly fascistic take on the heroic - the hero as "cleanser" of what is impure regardless of whether it's threatening or not.Roger G-Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08594440701279968693noreply@blogger.com