tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post1905143504118720870..comments2024-03-28T22:00:35.840-07:00Comments on Playing D&D With Porn Stars: I Just Do EyesZak Sabbathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-58357719599870370292013-10-13T16:07:40.320-07:002013-10-13T16:07:40.320-07:00I think I understand. thank you.I think I understand. thank you.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06177538062716782298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-3781646043000121982013-10-13T14:19:54.826-07:002013-10-13T14:19:54.826-07:00Density refers to how often something you need to ...Density refers to how often something you need to pay attention to in order to appreciate happens. So genre fiction can, yes, be dense.<br />They are unconnected factors.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-58842087584734130692013-10-13T14:17:17.440-07:002013-10-13T14:17:17.440-07:00Please allow me to frame the question better: Can ...Please allow me to frame the question better: Can something that is dense also be genre-fiction? or is it the point if the manga/film is dense that it makes no 'genre promises' ?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06177538062716782298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-6991768464788178362013-10-12T12:22:58.233-07:002013-10-12T12:22:58.233-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06177538062716782298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-39228856810704146122013-10-12T11:43:05.506-07:002013-10-12T11:43:05.506-07:00i don't remember that, can you say where it is...i don't remember that, can you say where it is?Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-39045442633321327822013-10-12T11:34:08.625-07:002013-10-12T11:34:08.625-07:00Smith, I hope you have time for another question. ...Smith, I hope you have time for another question. I did not understand when, in an earlier post, you described GoT as 'dense'. If possible could you please give some words as to how density relates to this current topic. thanks. Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06177538062716782298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-52759038209241809102013-10-11T11:22:53.366-07:002013-10-11T11:22:53.366-07:00I don't understand your second paragraph. Char...I don't understand your second paragraph. Character and plot seem to both be appreciated by pretty much everybody and you left what you mean by "literary" storytelling undefined there. (Unless you mean "storytelling mostly about describing a character" which is a strange way to define it)Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-58015128718581027252013-10-11T05:23:57.779-07:002013-10-11T05:23:57.779-07:00In movies and in comics and... in video games as w...In movies and in comics and... in video games as well, genre kicks non-genre's ass. I have been asking why - as a not entirely rhetorical question - for some time now. What you have offered here is the most compelling answer I have... seen.<br /><br />As a corollary, and by the same logic, why is it that snobs are so impressed by "literary" storytelling? The conventional answer is the supposedly more grown-up preference of character to plot; as if plot weren't good enough for, say, Aristotle. I think your logic could lead us to a more convincing explanation.Nicholas Packwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16294808278754279263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-40709734147946670592013-10-09T05:30:49.863-07:002013-10-09T05:30:49.863-07:00Manhattan, I am Cuba, Blade Runner, Fallen Angles,...Manhattan, I am Cuba, Blade Runner, Fallen Angles, were all made by great directors but they wouldn't be even half as good if they didn't have the likes of Gordon Willis,Sergey Urusevsky, Jordan Cronenweth and Chris Doyle behind the camera.I.F.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04345074915911014741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-12665801609786514582013-10-07T13:45:08.828-07:002013-10-07T13:45:08.828-07:00I have long suspected that Smith was more producti...I have long suspected that Smith was more productive, more clever and more brain-smart than I was. But now, more thoughtful? That I cannot stand. <br /><br />Guess I better go look for a day job. Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06177538062716782298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-47725423012032642732013-10-07T13:16:49.053-07:002013-10-07T13:16:49.053-07:00Also: liking "Blankets" makes you immedi...Also: liking "Blankets" makes you immediately wrong about everything.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-41285345690707761852013-10-07T12:20:51.510-07:002013-10-07T12:20:51.510-07:00I wanted to respond to this with a laundry list of...I wanted to respond to this with a laundry list of good non-genre comics - David Mazzucchelli's Asterios Polyp, or Craig Thompson's Blankets, or BLURG's BLURG, or BLORT's BLORT<br /><br />... but it all seems sort of irrelevant to the point you were trying to make, because the ascendancy of the fantastic in comics is pretty damn clear. Curtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18232966667520810737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-92079095788168921752013-10-07T11:31:38.419-07:002013-10-07T11:31:38.419-07:00Ah! Okay. Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, that...Ah! Okay. Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, that is something worth losing sleep over.Nate L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02173472885140308661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-49745560228094637092013-10-07T10:36:22.696-07:002013-10-07T10:36:22.696-07:00No you misread.
What I'm saying is that genre ...No you misread.<br />What I'm saying is that genre FILMS (and comics) are much more popularly and critically received than genre BOOKS, PAINTINGS etc.<br /><br />And, in the world of film, specifically, they seem to do surprisingly well, especially considering the cultures usual reaction to genre stuff.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-61494947120221390352013-10-07T06:52:36.400-07:002013-10-07T06:52:36.400-07:00Okay. I understand that and I'm glad you'...Okay. I understand that and I'm glad you've made that point. I'm interested to see what you do with it.<br /><br />But when you said that 'precious few not-genre films are up there," and that genre films kick the ass of not-genre films, I thought you meant that, on the whole, genre films are more successful than not-genre films. Which I don't agree with. And I thought that was the reason for your post in the first place - you were trying to provide a justification for things being the 'way they are.'Nate L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02173472885140308661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-33751206778453404072013-10-06T20:06:48.220-07:002013-10-06T20:06:48.220-07:00Of those, only Wong Kar Wai is familiar and his be...Of those, only Wong Kar Wai is familiar and his best movies (Fallen Angels, Ashes of Time) are TOTALLY genre films.<br />-<br />" It does not seem to me that the visuals in a genre film are more important, or do more, than the visuals in the above listed films."<br />Then you missed my point utterly.<br />No matter HOW BIG the role of visuals is in a film, size doesn't matter, its _literally what role the visual promises_ .<br />The cool mug in "In the Mood For Love" does not narratively demand you will see more cool mugs later in the film.<br />The samurai swords in "Ashes of Time" TOTALLY narratively promise more samurai swords will appear later in the film.<br />So:yes, the visuals perform an extra function in the genre film.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-51202138581143298982013-10-06T20:01:54.776-07:002013-10-06T20:01:54.776-07:00There are MANY fine non-genre films.
I am saying a...There are MANY fine non-genre films.<br />I am saying a specific thing: <br />the reason genre does so well in visual 4d media is because visuals _perform a special function_ in the genre film that they cannot perform in films without these conventions.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-50910733677693965752013-10-06T19:59:37.855-07:002013-10-06T19:59:37.855-07:00"Though, I think Wes Anderson films have beco..."Though, I think Wes Anderson films have become a genre"<br />Not on a bookstore shelf. Which is the only sense of the word "genre" I am using here.<br />-<br />David Lynch films make genre promises: guns, surrealism, monsters (of a kind). Confrontations, mystery.<br />I think you are right about safety though.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-11233015598847560932013-10-06T16:40:11.178-07:002013-10-06T16:40:11.178-07:00I think what the difference is here is render time...I think what the difference is here is render time (or definition time, but I think render is a more accurate term). An audience feels satisfaction at the grasping of concepts. The faster a concept is rendered, the more quickly satisfaction is achieved. <br /><br />So in Zak's example, Manhattan takes like two hours to render... 'Manhattan.' The first characters you meet aren't archetypes, so it takes a while to grasp who they are. Star Wars renders 'spaceship' in five seconds, then goes on to render other nouns with speed and satisfaction. 'robots' 'princess' 'space cowboy' ... <br /><br />Maybe providing a few fast render concepts into non genre works of visual media is a way too hook an audience more fully. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967246751293566152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-15015117630624206762013-10-06T16:18:26.242-07:002013-10-06T16:18:26.242-07:00Screwed up my footnotes. The * should be by the &q...Screwed up my footnotes. The * should be by the "none" in "none of them" and the list entry of Wong Kar-Wai should be ** (obviously).Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-8185052587224272002013-10-06T16:16:38.065-07:002013-10-06T16:16:38.065-07:00Just thinking about potential counterexamples. And...Just thinking about potential counterexamples. And movies, because I am not very well read in terms of comics. So, how would you categorize the following movies:<br /><br />- The Lives of Others<br />- The English Patient<br />- A Single Man<br />- Anything by Wong Kar-Wai<br /><br />None** of them are genre films. It does not seem to me that the visuals in a genre film are more important, or do more, than the visuals in the above listed films.<br /><br />* Kubrick, of course. But then he seemingly did one of every "low" genre <i>almost as a handicap to prove how good he was</i>. Ridley Scott is another example of a great director that has embraced genre pieces. Nolan's Dark Knight, Jackson's Fellowship of the Ring, the first Pirates of the Caribbean, and the first two Star Wars movies would also be on my own list, but I like this last collection of movies for reasons of taste that I don't assume would be shared by the bulk of humanity and/or critics.<br /><br />** Okay, there's a bit of sci-fi in Wong, but it's definitely not a dominant sensibility.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-20636182053761811452013-10-06T15:32:49.201-07:002013-10-06T15:32:49.201-07:00Oh, duh. Okay.
Then I'm not sure I understan...Oh, duh. Okay.<br /><br />Then I'm not sure I understand your opening premise. Of the great movies I've seen, it seems split about half and half between genre and not-genre. The great genre movies are really great in ways that not-genre movies can't be, and vice versa. Like, Solyaris is really great, because of the constraints of genre and how Tarkovsky plays with it. Onibaba is really great, for the same reasons that you detail above. But then, Sweet Movie and like L'Avventura and Ordet and The Sacrifice are really great, because they avoid genre, and move with freedom outside of those constraints. <br /><br />Both of those movements (inside genre, and outside genre) are impressive and difficult to do, and I'm not sure one beats the other . . . if that's what you mean.Nate L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02173472885140308661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-59561492302669205682013-10-06T15:12:19.475-07:002013-10-06T15:12:19.475-07:00Though, I think Wes Anderson films have become a g...Though, I think Wes Anderson films have become a genre. After a director's body of work demonstrates certain mainstays, more of the same becomes expected. David Lynch is another example. This may have to do with safety, in the sense that a promise of more spaceships might be promise of something great is coming up. And many people find safety in genre. There's less safety in Manhattan, it can go anywhere. But, if Woody Allen's direction is a promise of good things, that may be enough to kind of latch on to. <br /><br />I feel like this is kind of like what you said about games: say 'goblin' and we're all on the same page. Say 'murder', and we all know why that's important. Say 'dating a girl that's too young for him,' and that may need time for definition. Maybe genre works best in visual because you can say 'robot,' the audience gets it, 'sex,' they're in, 'fast car,' ditto, now that we're in this deep 'robot can have sex with fast cars, but may not be emotionally fulfilled because they are too young for it.' The audience's mind is now blown. We just went from cinematic comfort food to a real idea unexpectedly, and without the robot no one would take the ride.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12967246751293566152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-30616584674518218342013-10-06T13:38:31.300-07:002013-10-06T13:38:31.300-07:00Well then you're basically disagreeing with wh...Well then you're basically disagreeing with what I say from paragraph 7 on but without explaining why or having any argument against the specific examples or information given.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-17813911700737724912013-10-06T10:07:21.354-07:002013-10-06T10:07:21.354-07:00Well, I'm thinking that the difference is more...Well, I'm thinking that the difference is more obvious but no more important. But I'm saying that as someone who is very visually-oriented so maybe I can't see the difference. Stephen Donaldson, for example, says that he has no visual imagery in his head when he writes which I find almost totally alien. For me, writing and reading evoke very strong visuals.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10805769538648631984noreply@blogger.com