tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post1104945514645412169..comments2024-03-28T22:00:35.840-07:00Comments on Playing D&D With Porn Stars: Drunk, Prone & On Fire (Tactical Transparency)Zak Sabbathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-39029686755078372422018-10-17T18:07:18.738-07:002018-10-17T18:07:18.738-07:00This is a useful term to add to the lexicon.This is a useful term to add to the lexicon.Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-38838660408499395762018-10-17T06:33:51.197-07:002018-10-17T06:33:51.197-07:00@Alberto Voglino
I don't see an especially me...@Alberto Voglino<br /><br />I don't see an especially meaningful difference. Most OSR games acknowledge that bonuses and penalties are part of the system.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-67301283857153273642018-10-17T06:25:58.754-07:002018-10-17T06:25:58.754-07:00Super insightful, as usual!
Would you say that a...Super insightful, as usual! <br /><br />Would you say that a game designer wanting to write a RPG today, intended for OSR style of play, should try to design a mechanic that enforces this (like Demon City's extra throw/lost throw, correct me if I'm wrong)? Cause, from what I understand, a lot of new OSR rulesets take an "admission by omission" sort of approach, leaving it to the game master's rulings to reward creative play (lately often resulting in granting advantage/disadvantage), since that seems to be the way it's always been done.Altroubleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00295773014904746039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-39942336117052060312018-10-16T19:57:13.175-07:002018-10-16T19:57:13.175-07:00Yeah, Apocalypse games have horrible tactical tran...Yeah, Apocalypse games have horrible tactical transparency. Been playing a campaign of one and I can just see the mismatch in my current campaign in which one of the party is acting careful and smart and isn't really accomplishing much while meanwhile my Chopper PC is being played as a thickheaded blundering dumbass and he's really driving the story and being very successful. Am enjoying the game a lot so far (although haven't played it enough to see if it gets samey after you play it a while like FATE does) but understanding that the system encourages you to act stupid in certain ways and embrace that is really necessary to have it function properly, which can take some getting used to.<br /><br />The same system got under my skin a bit playing The Warren (a Waterhouse Down hack of Apocalypse World) since if anything should encourage smart careful play it's playing a freaking rabbit being hunted by a goddam owl. But apparently the smartest decision was to game the system a bit and kick the owl's ass because that's what the system encouraged.Boshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06908715118408289864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-61649514432815979412018-10-16T05:10:53.854-07:002018-10-16T05:10:53.854-07:00Thanks.Thanks.Rodrigo Garcia Carmonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13490579727883026920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-14647671027741658062018-10-16T04:15:38.645-07:002018-10-16T04:15:38.645-07:00@pamar bjornson
Demon City of course
@Rodrigo Ga...@pamar bjornson<br /><br />Demon City of course<br /><br />@Rodrigo Garcia Carmona<br /><br />Tactical transparency is mine. I think this essay might be the first use of itZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-15454497800707775442018-10-16T03:25:48.376-07:002018-10-16T03:25:48.376-07:00Is "tactical transparency" an original t...Is "tactical transparency" an original term or did you get if from someone/somewhere else?<br /><br />I'm a professor teaching game design at a university in Spain and want to use that term in my classes, but giving credit where there is due.<br /><br />Thanks for a very insightful post.Rodrigo Garcia Carmonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13490579727883026920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-56215853449158072082018-10-16T01:10:57.473-07:002018-10-16T01:10:57.473-07:00Thanks, I reread the whole piece after your answer...<br /><br />Thanks, I reread the whole piece after your answer and now I understand the point better (I believe).<br /><br />One more question: which game, in your opinion, works best in the spirit of OSR, for modern day, "realistic" adventures?<br /><br />(With "realistic" I mean no superheroes/supernatural stuff, so for example espionage, police procedural or action movies, in order to minimize the need to know setting-specific stuff like "Trolls regenerate so you have to use fire against them").<br />PaMarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10531178856693978202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-5783549220744214022018-10-15T21:14:07.606-07:002018-10-15T21:14:07.606-07:00great little supplement. I almost included it in m...great little supplement. I almost included it in my Perplexed QuestionnaireVance Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03911245780875316627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-12138913729581199882018-10-15T15:06:10.074-07:002018-10-15T15:06:10.074-07:00@Kyle Traylor
There's always something that w...@Kyle Traylor<br /><br />There's always something that works like that--often on purpose as a surprise. I think for example people in OSR games are VERY wary of children in dungeons compared to adults (even though tactically that makes less sense) just because they know Evil Children come up a lot. But these are minor things.<br /><br />More clearly:<br /><br />tactical transparency in Demon City is a notch less in some places than in, say, a superhero game because the amount of system you'd need to build to make Giant Monster sufficiently stronger than Dracula isnt worth it since you rarely have GiantMonster fighting Dracula in Demon City. The protagonists are people. So I can sacrifice a level of transparency for clarity and have the game still work for any purpose in the genre.<br /><br />When i do the superhero version, i end up making it slightly more complicated, systemwise so that the kaiju is wayyyy stronger than the vampire, like you'd expectZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-35258033049567882702018-10-15T13:36:19.784-07:002018-10-15T13:36:19.784-07:00@PaMAr
" "Tactics" is just a skil...@PaMAr<br /><br /><br />" "Tactics" is just a skill and therefore it helps to fill the gap between the player's actual knowledge and what the character is supposed to do... Tactics is used to help "simulate" the fact that characters with army experience should be better at small units placement, "<br /><br />Yes I know--everyone knows that. And that is NOT a desired thing in most OSR games.<br /><br />The skill of "figuring out how to win" is supposed to be more on the player.<br /><br />Character skills are supposed to be _less_ important in most OSR playZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-26688008986085707572018-10-15T13:32:40.228-07:002018-10-15T13:32:40.228-07:00Thanks, this post was interesting to me.
Still - I...Thanks, this post was interesting to me.<br />Still - I have some doubts about the Tactics part.<br /><br />In my experience (mostly based on how Tactics was defined in old Traveller rules, so maybe it won't apply to other games) "Tactics" is just a skill and therefore it helps to fill the gap between the player's actual knowledge and what the character is supposed to do.<br />In other words, if I want to play an Anthropologist in Call of Cthulhu, while I am just an HTML "coder" with a large Manga collection, I will try to roll under Anthropology when it is relevant.<br />The only way something like Tactics could reduce what you call Tactical Transparency would be if it prevented the player's common sense by putting a cap on the result of their decisions.<br />E.g.: being on higher ground in a firefight would grant up to a +2 bonus - but you have only Tactics:1, the other characters have no level in Tactics and the rules says that you cannot get a situational bonus which is higher than the highest level of Tactics in the party.<br /><br />In other words, at least in my experience, Tactics is used to help "simulate" the fact that characters with army experience should be better at small units placement, teamwork and using the terrain/weapons to maximum effect than people who have no specific training or actual combat experience. In this sense, it stacks with other situational modifiers, but does not limit them.<br />PaMarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10904008809249375913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-39636795142791660502018-10-15T12:33:00.587-07:002018-10-15T12:33:00.587-07:00Makes sense. You're not making a qualitative s...Makes sense. You're not making a qualitative statement about whether something is made better or worse as a whole by that degree of obfuscation (you do still play and enjoy FFG 40K I think), just whether something is more or less OSR on these criteria.<br /><br />Do you feel like there are any elements in your own modules that obscure transparency at the level of setting mastery?Verad Bellveilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06200642022404699056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-77421420777541577822018-10-15T12:26:27.103-07:002018-10-15T12:26:27.103-07:00@Kyle Traylor
It'a not a common gun but you s...@Kyle Traylor<br /><br />It'a not a common gun but you still need to <br /> <br />Know the Setting and equipment list<br /><br />more than<br /><br />Know what a good idea looks like<br /><br />to be effective in that game. Like i know that plate mail is better than leather. i have no idea whether a Refractor field is better than carapace armor<br /><br />HAving to know the setting still obscures transparency to a _degree_Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-35087418048147143762018-10-15T12:20:05.497-07:002018-10-15T12:20:05.497-07:00Good post. The storm bolter example feels like a l...Good post. The storm bolter example feels like a lesser complaint compared to the others because it relies on setting rather than system mastery: the gun is really that good in setting and is reflected as such in the system. Seems to be of a piece with your comment about fantasy tactical transparency. My knowledge of the FFG 40K games is limited though: is that a gun people can get easily and early, e.g. at char creation?<br /><br />Other WFRP example that might be useful where system mastery matters more than setting mastery might be "naked dwarf" syndrome in which an unarmored dwarf is a better frontline combatant than a more heavily armored human because of better Toughness; representing dwarves as that tough seems to have been unintentional and lends to system mastery trumping tactics.<br /><br />Verad Bellveilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06200642022404699056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-62428526040250401142018-10-15T12:06:32.444-07:002018-10-15T12:06:32.444-07:00@emmy allen
All I can say to all that is go visit...@emmy allen<br /><br />All I can say to all that is go visit /rpg on reddit some time. There are people there who think Dungeon World is an experience of tactical intensity on par with a bar brawl with Bruce Lee. They're wrong--but I get that they play the game more tactically than is normal for them.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-14757423316127306282018-10-15T12:03:09.791-07:002018-10-15T12:03:09.791-07:00@zak
That's reasonable.
In response to point ...@zak<br />That's reasonable. <br />In response to point 1: obviously people will play the game differently, but PbtA seems to assume the method I've described as the default from the bits I've read and played. I suspect that if you try to play it more like a trad game, it's gonna suck because you're using a square peg for a round hole.<br />In response to point 2: I imagine those people have a very different perspective to us but it's not one that really matters to the discussion at hand.<br /><br />I don't think it's *only* relevant to say that PbtA and similar games are less transparent than OSR games. I think that the assumed way you play PbtA inherently prevents<br />Like you have a sliding scale of transparency with OSR at one end and something like 5e closer to the other. You can (for example) tweak 5e to make it more transparent (by, perhaps, cutting out PC options that negate any need for tactics), and it's still basically the same game. <br />On the other hand, the PbtA games I've played are (to coin a phrase), totally tactically opaque. The tactics you use are always gonna be literally irrelevant because you roll the dice first and then decide what actions would have produced that result. You can't tweak the system to make it more transparent, you have to drastically change the *basic assumptions* about how you even play the game. <br /><br />(these statements don't just apply to PbtA, obviously, but to that whole style of play where you roll dice first and then invent the fiction to match what you rolled. Indeed, you *can* play PbtA more like a trad game, I just think it's gonna make a rather poor trad game if you do.)<br />I suspect I'm going off on a tangent here and ought to just turn this into a seperate post of my own.Cavegirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03853637517886592288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-22196541814110599372018-10-15T11:35:43.665-07:002018-10-15T11:35:43.665-07:00@Emmy Allen
Yes, but it's important to acknow...@Emmy Allen<br /><br />Yes, but it's important to acknowledge<br /><br />1. people play pbta in different ways, and<br /><br />2. many people coming from a storygame background tend to pbta games as a shocking plunge into grit and fictional positioninf from what they're used to, which is even MORE lightweight than pbta,<br /><br />The only relevant thing to say is: they're less tactically transparent than OSR games. That's the only important thing hereZak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-90823520053958563222018-10-15T11:30:55.701-07:002018-10-15T11:30:55.701-07:00The man of wounds is indeed from Roger GS of roles...The man of wounds is indeed from Roger GS of roles, rules and rolls. It's in his low-level critter pdf Varlets and Vermin http://rolesrules.blogspot.com/2010/05/varlets-and-vermin-10.htmlChris Eaglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11269159624720601839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-81086735138901073822018-10-15T09:11:31.430-07:002018-10-15T09:11:31.430-07:00So, WRT PbtA specifically:
In my experience PbtA g...So, WRT PbtA specifically:<br />In my experience PbtA games don't really care about tactical transparency. Because the game makes the player's aims about creating a story rather than overcoming challenges, the process of deciding what happens resolves differently. Some examples.<br /><br />Example 1: a trad game.<br />The situation. I'm playing LotFP. A horrible mutant wolf-bear-scorpion monster shows up. A fight seems likely.<br />What I do: I ask questions about the monster and it's behaviour. Turns out it looks hungry, and probably can't climb trees. So, my allies and I climb trees to get out of immediate danger. Once up the trees, we intend put some poison in our trail rations and throw them down for the monster to eat.<br />Result: The GM, thinking about this plan, has us roll to see if we can get up the trees in time while the monster is charging at us. Once up, he decides the monster eats our poisoned sausages, and rolls its save vs poison.<br /><br />Example 2: PbtA<br />The situation: My PC (a river-spirit disguised as a teenager in highschool) is confronted by the school bully. It seems a fight is imminant.<br />What I do: Some conversation about the personalities of my PC and the bully ensues between me and the GM. We decide that a fight is definately going to happen, since neither party seems keen to back down. We roll for the move Lash Out Physically to see how well I do at fighting, and get a mixed success (7-9).<br />The result: Now, the GM and I have an idea of how the fight's gone down. We discuss the specifics and come up with a narrative that fits the characters and the dice result. Since I do harm to the bully, I've clearly won and we figure that my river-spirit has probably knocked a few of his teeth out with his punch, and then now she's winning just goes to town kicking and stomping on the guy once he's on the floor. However, the mixed success means I get a negative condition; we agree that since everybody has seen me flip out and brutalize this guy I'm tagged with the social condition 'dangerous psycho' as people get worried about my behavior.<br /><br />It's a totally different set of approaches. In the trad game, you first start out by applying fictional positioning, and the choices you make determine what the result is. In the narrative game, once you've got a broad idea of the scene, you *first* work out the end result and *then* retroactively come up with what fictional positioning would have produced that result.<br />There's little to no tactical transparancy, because the game's order of resolution is reversed: rather than your actions influencing the result in predictable ways, instead the result is worked out and you decide what actions would have led to that result.<br /><br />If you go into this sort of game wanting to use smart tactics in encounters, you'll find the system incredibly frustrating because you're not, fundamentally, playing your PC. You're playing the author who writes your PC.Cavegirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03853637517886592288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-79533944531221498272018-10-15T08:20:19.028-07:002018-10-15T08:20:19.028-07:00@Onze
I didn't say pbta had ZERO tactical tra...@Onze<br /><br />I didn't say pbta had ZERO tactical transparency, I said it had LESS.<br /><br />When people write really basic comments like that, I have to dumb down the posts and make them more repetitive and childish in order to avoid getting them.<br /><br />So unless you want the blog to read like a grade-school primer, please think and read harder before posting. Or, if you can't default to __asking a question_ rather than _making a statement_ in the comments.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2638993969706011706.post-76040167233794675532018-10-15T08:16:41.256-07:002018-10-15T08:16:41.256-07:00One PBTA general exception to your qualms about ta...One PBTA general exception to your qualms about tactical transparency, however, is that most of these games assert that certain fictional positionnings can allow you to e.g. bypass rolling altogether and simply deal damage, while other positionnings might make what you're attempting simply impossible. Agree with the rest, thanks for the thoughtful post. Onzenoreply@blogger.com